What's up with the "Swedistan" meme?

Great Debates
101

OP, most likely reason why you don’t get it is that, as a Swede, you are surrounded by what I consider lies. You simply can’t see the gaping flaws and injustices in your society, no matter how smart you are.

Everything in Sweden is completely different compared to USA: education system, freedom and impartiality of press and other media, trade unions, voting system and practises, political parties and their funding, laws about free speech. Unfortunately, with different I mean more totalitarian.

On this thread I have seen some strong but unfortunately ignorant statements about how nice place Sweden is. Please consider getting to know Sweden bit better. It won’t be easy though. I know this probably sounds paranoid and ridiculous, but you can’t trust the information Swedish press and Swedish government gives to you. There are some good alternative sources (and no they have nothing to do with neo-nazism). You generally need to know Swedish language to be able to read them though.

A good starter in English would be this book: The New Totalitarians - Wikipedia

It is written more than 40 years ago, but it still explains so much. The seeds of the tragedy were already sown back then.

Also I can recommend this blog, written by American-Swedish, about every day absurdities of the country: http://swedenreport.org/

102

Actually I do see flaws and injustices in the Swedish society. What I don’t see is a huge conspiracy or an invasion of muslims.

I know these things are different between the US and Sweden, and in most cases I actually prefer the Sweidsh way. I like trade unions and I think our voting system is far superior to that of the US. I don’t think the media here is that great, but that is mainly due to lack of competence and time pressure placed on journalists. I wish there would be more depth to the national discourse. I do however think that the free speech culture is better in the US, probably because we’ve never had to fight for it here.

The idea that Sweden is a ”totalitarian” state seems quite absurd to me unless you have a completely different definition than I do. It’s a democracy with free press and free education. As a Swede you are guaranteed an education and if you’re politically inclined there are 8 different parties* you can join… In what way do you think this is a totalitarian state?

Getting to know Sweden better? I’ve lived here for 39 years and I still do.

I checked out the blog and was very unimpressed. On the first page two statistics were presented as facts, and they are both wrong. He also thinks that ”mandatory feminism indoctrination camps” were just narrowly avoided because the ”F!” party did not make the cut to the parliament. The guy writing it has some rather extreme opinions and is obviously a huge fan of the US. Now he is moving there, good for him. Actually I am being way to nice, the guy is obviously a loon and I hope he gets some support wherever he is going.

So you understand that it feels a bit weird for me who actually lives here to be told that the situation is a certain way, when I can (and do) simply walk out the door and confirm that is not the case? Are you open to the idea that maybe it is your information that is wrong? I’m sorry, but for me this whole thing is just completely surreal.

  • There are actually many more than 8 and of course you can start your own, but there are 8 “big” ones meaning they are represented in the parliament.
103

Yes but I’m afraid you know Sweden a bit same way than a Pravda-educated Soviet citizen knew his society. Sorry for this rather crude comparison but I couldn’t come up with any better. Of course in Sweden there is still more liberties and free speech than there were in Soviet Union.

Sigh… I was just about to say to myself “well here we have finally a Swede who can take heavy criticism about his society without going immediately to this Swedish passive-aggressive mode”. And then you did. It happens E-V-E-R-Y time. Not only with me: everyone who has for example tried to talk critically about immigration with Swedes tells me that. The guy who runs the blog definitively doesn’t deserve such insults from you.

104

My knowledge of the Soviet Union is that it was a one party system where the media was owned by the government.

Sweden has 8 major political parties and the media is almost exclusively privately owned.

Frankly, when compared to the US I think the political system is vastly superior. I think the electoral collage idea is undemocratic and that the US is in reality a two party system that has legalized what I would call corruption (your lobbying and campaign finances). In Sweden it would be a huge scandal if a politician accepted donations from a group in exchange for political influence.

My “insult” was to call him a loon. I don’t think that is very harsh when you actually look at what he is writing. He seriously thinks that if a party that got about 1% of the votes and is based on feminist principles would be elected, there would be “indoctrination camps”.

I really, really don’t mind people criticizing Sweden, in fact I think it is great if actual flaws and injustices are exposed, and as a formerly very politically active person I enjoy discussing the issues. But you are not criticizing my country, you really aren’t, because what you are talking about is an imaginary country that does not exist in reality. I would actually agree that having indoctrination camps or being invaded by jihadists would be a horrible thing, but it’s not happening, so it’s hard for me to be outraged about it.

Doesn’t it seem strange to you that regular people who live in Sweden simply don’t see these things? Are you saying that everyone except a few bloggers who can’t get their facts straight are suffering from some sort of mass hallucination, or that we have all been brain washed? And why are you accusing me of being passive-agressive just because I don’t see what you are seeing? I’m trying to be open minded here but the stuff that you’re coming up with just isn’t real.

There are real issues that could (and should) be discussed and real flaws and injustices here, but those are not what these people or this meme is talking about. I mean what is the actual issues that you want to talk about?

Where are you getting this information from? You linked to a 40 year old book that seems to criticize the Social Democratic party and their ideas about social engineering, and fair points could be made about that. However that was a democratic and open process that is historically documented, not a conspiracy. The other link was to some guy who had some really extreme opinions by swedish standards and was obviously horribly ignorant on how the political system works (being afraid of non-existent policies from a party that hovers around 1% for example).

Once again, where are you getting your information from and what makes you think it is correct?

105

Sweden is a society without secret voting and where speaking true facts about a politically incorrect topic is illegal. It’s a society whose Human Development Index is predicted to decline, as the HDI of almost every other nation in the world rises. Of course the citizens are living in a totalitarian state.

106

Actually I agree that the national debate on immigration and refugee policy here is very bad. It’s way too polarized and the pro-immigration people are way to quick to label anyone that is critical as a xenophobe. Basically it’s between the “OMG we are being overrun by muslims and darkies that want to destroy us” on one side and “Everyone who moves here is a lovely person who can’t do anything wrong”. I happen to think both sides are idiots and I think that we need some sensible middle-of-the-road people in the discussion.

107

OK I’m just going to be frank here and say that your statements are lies, and that is a fact.

#1 There is secret voting in Sweden.
Please provide a cite that there isn’t or concede the point.

#2 It is not illegal to “speak true facts”
Please provide a cite or concede the point.

#3 Please explain how a country with 8 different parties and free press is “totalitarian”.

Also, please be honest and let me know if you’re actually interested in anything resembling a real conversation, or if you’re just trying to… I don’t know, embarrass yourself or get a rise out of someone.
Ps. The stuff you linked to has already been debunked in this very thread. Are you actually receiving information or are you locked in transmit mode with no capacity to alter information internally?

108

[QUOTE=Wikipedia]
Swedish election policy of always displaying the ballot papers for voters to select in public, making it impossible for many voters to vote secretly, has been criticised as undemocratic. Many use subterfuge and select bunches of additional ballots which they do not actually intend to use.[6]
[/QUOTE]

The second claim is cited in the linked source. A politician made a true statement about Islam without verifying its veracity beforehand, and was given a jail sentence for it.

109

Gatestone publishes blatant lies.

110

Except charts of Swedish rape statistics show a steady increase over time, not a rapid spike when laws relating to sexual assault, which implies that their high rate of rape is not a consequence of legal changes. Moreover, evidence (from the link I provided) explains that 85% of rapists in one Swedish court, and half of rapists in nearby Denmark, were immigrants. This evidence, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, strongly suggests that Sweden’s rape epidemic is a consequence of their mass importation of third world Muslims.

111

The first claim about secret voting is false.

At every voting station blank slips and pens are provided so you can write in whatever you want to, if you don’t want to pick up a pre-printed ballot for reason of… I don’t know… some random stranger happening to see that you’re voting for. Another method would be to simply pick several ballots, they are all neatly stacked next to each other. It’s also illegal to register peoples voting preferences. So… debunked.
The politician you’re talking about said that raping and beating women was a deeply rooted part of muslim culture. That is what was hiding behind your “factually correct statements”. But more importantly he was NOT sentenced to jail. He was first sentenced to a fine + probation in “Tingsrätten”, but that was overturned and he was acquitted by the “Högsta Domstolen”. So… completely debunked.
You also claimed that Sweden is a totalitarian state. Would you like to try and back that up or can you simply concede that everything you’ve come up with so far has been completely false?

112

Stoneburg, I have to give you a warning for that. It is explicitly against the rules of Great Debates to accuse another poster of lying. Please don’t do so again.

113

Yes, immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East are over represented in the rape statistics. But the “rape epidemic” you are talking about is a result of different ways to define rape and gather statistics. This has been explained to you before. A lie does not actually become a truth just because you repeat it. I know some people think it does, but that’s not actually how it works.
Once again… it’s a combination of three factors where Sweden differs that is responsible for the anomaly:

  • We have a very wide definition of rape since 2005. For example having sex with someone who is asleep is considered rape now.
  • There have been many campaigns and efforts to increase women’s willingness to report and press charges.
  • When a woman is raped repeatedly it is counted as different cases of rape. If a woman is raped for 10 years by her partner, that can result in hundreds or thousands of “rape cases” being reported.

The last one is obviously the main culprit.

114

Oh for heavens sake… I even read the rules before I posted that!

So can I get some help here. What’s a good synonym for “lie” that is acceptable?

115

I said in my second post in this thread that Sweden’s method of counting rapes inflated their total number relative to other countries. I totally understand that they do things differently than do other countries. If Sweden was actually the rape capital of the world, much like American college campuses are claimed to be, no one would actually go there. The fact that people flock to both of those places indicates that the likelihood of rape isn’t as bad as stated. That doesn’t change the fact that Sweden’s decision to become a multi-ethnic state has increased the amount of rape.

116

And the sites that they link to are blatant liars also, most especially Robert Spencer’s bullshit Jihadwatch, which, for instance, repeats the “100% of rapists in Oslo were Muslims” nonsense that was so popular among the Islam-haters on the web and which is (you guessed it) blatant lies.

117

In other words, Gatestone are blatant liars.

“Sure my link was to a site that contained blatant lies, but the conclusions that the blatant liars at that link drew from the blatant lies they told are still true anyway!”

118

That is true. Immigrants are over represented in the rape statistics and that is a problem. If you were to limit your claims to that we would be in total agreement. But you don’t. You keep stating things that are blatantly out of correlation with the observable reality.

119

The specific sources for the two claims are BT.dk, which appears to be a general news site, and a book about crime stats. But that’s a nice strawman you’ve got there, attacking sources and claims I never made.

120

Especially since even then it’d be begging the question. Even if immigrants are convicted of more rapes than native-born Swedes, that doesn’t mean they commit more rapes.

For instance, here in the US, African-Americans make up 80% of those convicted of crack cocaine use. But they make up only 19% of those who use crack cocaine. So, to assert that African-Americans make up the majority of crack users based on their conviction rate would be completely false.