I’m still waiting for an answer from the defenders of the State flying the Confederate Battle Flag as to why their not also agitating to have the State fly the United Kingdom’s Union Jack.
Because that attempt at secession worked.
Nope. Alabama’s flag resembles Florida’s flag. It’s actually the Georgia and Mississippi flags which have the “Southern Cross” flag as a component.
(sure hope this works)
Alabama
[file]c:/alabama_small.bmp[/file]
Florida
[file]c:/florida_small.bmp[/file]
Mississippi
[file]c:/mississi_small.bmp[/file]
Georgia
[file]c:/georgia_small.bmp[/file]
For a good history of flags of the Confederacvy, feel free to check http://members.xoom.com/JKMcNeillSCVcamp/Flags.htm plus the book Mr. McNeill mentions on that site.
(this should work)
Alabama
c:/alabama_small.bmp
Florida
c:/florida_small.bmp
Mississippi
c:/mississi_small.bmp
Georgia
c:/georgia_small.bmp
Mississippi/Alabama. . .
What’s the difference?
Georgia sold them to the Spanish, and we were dumb enough to take 'em back.
Georgia most certainly did NOT sell Alabama or Mississippi to the Spanish.
The northern parts of those states were claimed by the French, Spanish and English variously during the 17th and 18th centuries. The treaty that ended the French and Indian war in 1763 ceded the French claim on the area to Britain. The British and the Spanish dickered over the northern boundary of Florida during this time. By the Treaty of Paris (1783) ending the Revolutionary war, Spain recovered Florida, including the panhandle which extended all the way to the Mississippi River and the United States got the northern parts of the states. The northern boundary of the Florida colonies of Spain was set in 1799 at the 31st Parallel. Georgia sold its interest in that area to the federal government in 1802. The western boundary of Florida’s panhandle was established in 1813 after the US took over the Mobile area during the War of 1812. The Florida colony was finally obtained in its entirety by the Adams-Onis treaty in 1821, by which time both Alabama and Mississippi were states of the Union (the US relinquished its claim on Texas in return for Florida, can you believe it?).
I think this pretty well sums it up. In my experience, most of the people that fly confederate flags do it not out of racism, but because:
(1)It is a symbol of their identity. I still say that Southerners are, for all practical purposes, a distinct ethnic group. There are lots of ethnic groups that don’t have a nation of their own. The Kurds of Iraq/Iran/Syria come to mind.
(2)It symbolizes the mindset that “big government is bad government.” This is why alot of militia-types like the Stars and Bars.
Of course, given the history of the Confederate States of America, it’s easy to see why blacks don’t like the Confederate flag. The NAACP’s position is not unreasonable (Although you know the Civil Rights movement has lost its momentum when the most noble cause Jesse Jackson can find is a bunch of expelled juvenile delinquents.) However, the pro-flag people have a reasonable position themselves (They have as much right to celebrate their heritage as anybody).
So all in all, we have yet another divisive issue that has no easy solution. Sigh File it away with all the others…I already have enough causes that I care about.
–It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats.
*Monty: (this should work) *
Only for you. The links you posted were file paths on your computer. All we saw were little red X’s.
<font color="#f00000">
The Canadians. They walk among us. William Shatner. Michael J. Fox. Monty Hall. Mike Meyers. Alex Trebek. All of them Canadians. All of them here.
Nor surprising since the flags are “little red Xs.”
The first posting didn’t work because I used the expression {file}…{/file} instead of {img}…{/img}. The second posting of the files actually did work.
Monty, didn’t work here.
~Kyla
“Anger is what makes America great.”
Kyla: that’s probably because the files are Windows bitmaps (*.bmp).
This is disgusting. Who the hell ever heard of mixing rum with spring water?
OK, I am a Southerner, and I will take a shot at answering the OP.
While it is true that the South is not a nation, it is equally true that Southerners share a rich cultural history. We have the same or similar accents, from Texas to Georgia, to Virginia. We have the same cultural mores, same cuisine (with local variations, etc. etc.
Add to this the fact that Southerners are frequently attacked and stereotyped in the media. You want a character in your movie/television program/play to be immediately recognized as stupid? Give that character a thick Southern accent. (Does anyone deny that these stereotypes exist?)For many years, Hollywood gave us two primary stereotypes of Southerners: Good-hearted but stupid/ignorant (think Beverly Hillbillies and Gomer Pyle) or evil and racist. (Fortunately, the stereotyping has abated in recent years, but it is still out there.For evidence of the effect of this stereotyping on the way others view us, see NightGirl44’s post above.)
Now, given these stereotypes, there is a good deal of defensiveness in the average Southerner. That defensiveness often takes the form of pride. Southerners look for a symbol which they can display which says “I am a Southerner, and I am, by God, proud to be a Southerner!” From childhood, I have viewed the flag not as an emblem of racism, but an emblem of pride of place. (Though I realize others may not view it this way.) Granted, the Confederate flag is an imperfect symbol, but what others are available? Anyone?
Having said all of that, I recognize that the flag has other meanings to other people. To the KKK morons who fly it at their rallies, it is, I suppose, a symbol of their bigotry. To blacks, it is, understandably, a symbol of oppression. (For that very reason I will agree that the flag should never fly over a government office, because not only does it not represent all citizens, it is patently offensive to a large group of them.)
I am saddened, however, that I cannot display a Confederate flag as a symbol of pride without its being construed as a symbol of bigotry. I have put the flag away, because I do not wish to cause fear or hurt feelings in others. But I long for a day when I can fly the flag, and others will understand that I mean no offense by it.
I am not one of those Southerners who will argue defensively that the Civil War was not about slavery. Clearly, the slavery issue caused the war. But my ancestors, who fought under the Confederate flag, didn’t fight for slavery. They didn’t own any slaves. They fought, from their perspective, to defend their homeland from an invading force. And they continued to fight valiantly when it was clear to all that the war was lost. Can I not take some pride in that? To me, the flag represents courage and defiance in the face of certain defeat. It represents pride, in spite of all the barbs and stereotypes, in one’s Southern-ness. And that, I believe, is how most Southerners who fly the flag view it.
If Southerners share a rich cultural history, then they ought to be able to find a symbol of that nearly 400 years of history that doesn’t specifically symbolize the period 1861-65, I would think. But I could be wrong.
As for the Confederate Battle Flag (CBF) representing racism, the origins of the flying of the CBF on official buildings (and its inclusion in Southern state flag emblems) was curiously coincidental with the increasingly active resistance by blacks to segregation in the 1950s and 60s, as has been discussed at length in other threads.
And any connection between states’ rights and the Civil War is BS: the antebellum Southern states were happy to use the Federal government, which they had working control over for the most part, to force Northern states to return their escaped, two-legged ‘property’.
Southern congressmen were for states’ rights when it benefitted slavery, and for Federal jurisdiction when that benefitted slavery. They were quite happy with the Constitution as long as the Southern legislators had in their pockets the 3/5 of a vote that was counted for each slave, and as long as that boost was enough to keep control of the U.S. government in Southern hands.
To them the Union was a game of ‘heads I win, tails I quit’: as long as the South retained electoral control, the Union was peachy-fine with them. But the moment they lost that control, they seceded.
Hey, I sent in a recommendation on a better flag to fly that was more representative than those four years. Not only did they not use it, but next thing I know, Hawaiian Tropic is using it in their promotions in Argentina.
RTFirefly wrote
Well? What symbol would you offer? (Hey, I asked for suggestions.) The fact is, the Confederate flag, however imperfect, and however emotionally loaded, is the only symbol out there.
Im from georgia, and its awesome! I love the way we talk and act and everything! But if everybody here will just stop for ONE second, you’ll notice the only difference between the north and south is: the two are just different! Neither one is better or worse. Hate and racism is everywhere jeez, everybody knows that. Who cares if the media exaggerates our accents, i think theyre awesome! Maybe theyre jealous or something i dont know. I think we should all just get over it, the south is here and the north is there and thats the way it is. its not going to change, so lets be friends! the only real other choice is we could hate each other forever, and that is just a sucky way to live.</font>
<font color=“black” size=“3”>gl0worm</font>
Gl0worm: you’re a bad liar. Your profile on AOL indicates you live in LA. So that’s either Los Angeles or Louisiana. But, it could be your atrocious spelling has you listing “LA” instead of “GA” there.
A couple of quick thoughts.
I’m not accusing any of the posters of being racist, but when one says that the C.Flag is a symbol of southern pride/heritage/etc. it occurs to me that that’s what white southerners think of. Black southerners? Probably not.
This brings me to the second point, a quick dive into communication theory. If we want to have a workable relationship, and I like calling you “Little Mister” or “Little Missy” because I think that it’s friendly, and you tell me that you hate it,
I HAVE TO RESPECT THAT. If I don’t, once I know how you feel, no matter how much I want to call you that, I’m being a jerk.
The flags have got to go, Little Misters and Little Missies.
Bucky
Oh, well. We can always make more killbots.
DSYoung - good points
I am from Texas. When I went to college in the Northeast, I was ridiculed for my accent and people would make fun of my home as being a racist backwater full of pickup trucks and (in their opinion) bad country music.
When I was in college, a problem arose one night when a student in one of the dorms (from a southern state) put a rebel flag in his window. He didn’t intend anything racist by it - I think he was just homesick - but many black students found the flag insulting. Eventually, a black student across the street from the offending window put up a Nazi flag in her window and all hell broke loose all over campus. Eventually, the college ended up banning ALL flags from windows and that was that. I even had to remove my Texas flag from my window.
Being a young and brash student from a Southern state, I vigorously argued with anyone and everyone that the Confederate flag wasn’t racist and was never intended to be racist. Although age has led me to now give more credit to slavery as a cause of the war than I did at that time, I still don’t think of the Rebel flag is a racist symbol. Some groups now use it that way, and unfortunately, to the great majority of the country it’s now just as racist as a swastika.
Personally, I think that the flag represents a proud and strong class of people who took a stand for a cause they believed in, and died in defense of that cause. Certainly slavery was one of the key pieces of their lives, but it wasn’t a defining issue. Unfortunately, in our dumbed-down world that’s always begging for dichotomy, slavery, and therefore racism, is the easiest way to define the war. Many of the other aspects of the CSA and the South have been lost on a lot of people.
That being said…
The important point that I’ve learned, however, is that even if they’re not 100% accurate, some people DO see the flag as being racist. And if they do, then it should not be flying over a public building that’s meant to represent all citizens. These people feel disenfranchised by their own government and that’s wrong.
The flag should still be honored, and our heritage cherished, but not at the expense of the well-being and comfort of a portion of the population. Although I feel those people who are against the flag may not be entirely correct, those people who continue to support it are being extremely insensitive.