Wheel of Time 12 - The Gathering Storm (spoilers)

[Smeghead]

I hope nobody minds if I bump this yet again, but I just finished reading this (in two days - yay for being miserably sick?) and I have to share. The reason it’s taken me this long to get to it is that way back in November, I decided to listen to the audio versions of the first 11 books, and it took me until three days ago do finish them.

I’ve been reading this series since I was in junior high, and I’ve been through all of the ups and downs as each new book came out, but I have to say that going through them all this last time, I enjoyed the whole series more than I ever have before. I don’t know if it’s because I was able to take them as they were, rather than wishing for something more, or because I was able to get through them so quickly, or what, but the whole thing seemed more cohesive to me than it has in the past. I was able to keep track of all the different parties much much better than I ever have before, and it all just worked better for me.

So RJ’s work was fresh in my appreciative mind when I started book 12, and overall I thought Sanderson hit it out of the ballpark. Unlike some of the others in this thread, I thought the style was very different from Jordan’s, but it didn’t bother me much. It’s like he said in the forward - it’s like having a new director take over your favorite movie franchise. I’d say the biggest difference, to me, was the dialogue. People actually talked to each other in this one. Previously, you’d have this:
Person A: short question
RJ: A few pages of description of what was going on in the head of everyone within a two mile radius
Person B: Short answer
RJ: A few more pages of person A trying to figure out what person B’s answer meant, possibly with a long digression into the history of Altara.

In this book, they just talk to each other. Refreshing.

Anyway, specific points:

I, too loved Egwene’s storyline, and it’s SUCH a relief to have that conflict over with. It was what, three books ago when she Traveled her army to start the siege? I remember when the next book came out, I was dying to see the end of it, and there was maybe one chapter right at the end describing them all sitting there doing nothing. That’s been dragging on way too long, and we all knew how it would end. Good on Sanderson for finishing it off with style. Although, I have to say that some of the Sitters coming over to Egwene’s side did so just a bit too readily to be believable. Small nitpick.

Rand - well done overall, but I thought the ending was weak. Having his big realization be that “LOVE IS WHAT IT’S ALL ABOUT” was a little cheesy. I mean, again, we all knew that’s where it was going to end up, so maybe it was inevitable, but it didn’t work well for me. Other than that last bit, though, I enjoyed his story.

Perrin - meh. He hasn’t had anything interesting to do since the battle of the Two Rivers, which, incidentally, was one of my favorite scenes of the whole series. Hopefully that will change when he gets back to Rand.

Mat - I actually liked how he was treated in this book. The backstory thing cracked me right the hell up, and didn’t seem out of character at all to me. The village story was weird - a little chunk of Twilight Zone dropped into the middle of the book. I also liked seeing his interactions with Talmanes. That is a perfect example of the dialogue thing I mentioned. Every time we’ve seen Talmanes before, he got maybe one or two lines of dialogue as Mat ordered him around. He became an actual character in this book.

Verin - Verin rocked. She always has. She’s possibly the most bad-ass person in the books. What a way to go.

One other thing that’s been bothering me - the world has been on the brink of starvation for how long now? Let’s recap. Waaaay back at the beginning of the first book, winter was lasting far too long thanks to the Dark One. They lost most of the spring and summer before the victory at the Eye of the World, which ended the winter. Then, I think they either had one normal year, or else it was that year when the heat lasted way too long and all the crops died again. That ended when the gaggle of women used the Bowl of Winds, and winter came all of a sudden, making everyone miserable again. Now, that winter is over, spring is here, but now nothing’s growing, everything’s rotting, and decay is everywhere. Food has been in short supply since book one - surely, realistically, they’ve run out completely by now. Nobody’s harvested a decent crop in years.

Anyway, bring on book 13!

[XT]

I can’t wait for the next one! It’s definitely on my short list of books to read (and then get the audio book for) this year. I just finished listening to the entire series on my Zune so I’m all set for the next book.

-XT

[Zoinks]

@Smeghead

Previously, you’d have this:
Person A: short question
RJ: A few pages of description of what was going on in the head of everyone within a two mile radius
Person B: Short answer
RJ: A few more pages of person A trying to figure out what person B’s answer meant, possibly with a long digression into the history of Altara.

Ha, I actually laughed out loud with that.

@Smeghead

One other thing that’s been bothering me - the world has been on the brink of starvation for how long now? Let’s recap. Waaaay back at the beginning of the first book, winter was lasting far too long thanks to the Dark One. They lost most of the spring and summer before the victory at the Eye of the World, which ended the winter. Then, I think they either had one normal year, or else it was that year when the heat lasted way too long and all the crops died again. That ended when the gaggle of women used the Bowl of Winds, and winter came all of a sudden, making everyone miserable again. Now, that winter is over, spring is here, but now nothing’s growing, everything’s rotting, and decay is everywhere. Food has been in short supply since book one - surely, realistically, they’ve run out completely by now. Nobody’s harvested a decent crop in years.

Don’t bother analyzing economics in Randland, it’s clear Jordan gave it very little thought. Me, I was always bothered by the mystery of where the Aiel got the wood for their numerous spears. Sure, they traded with the Ogier, the Sharans, and with wandering merchants but seeing how profligate the Aiel are with their weapons (how many spears have we seen broken?), they would have needed more than the occasional trading mission to keep themselves supplied. Plus clans in the centre of the Waste should have had wood shortages and therefore would be militarily weaker than clans whose territories bordered the wetlands and Shara. And yet nary a hint of this in the books.

[Smeghead]

Right. I’ve also always wondered how the White Tower manages to pay a thousand or so women a “comfortable allowance”, not to mention all the novices, Accepted, servants, guards, etc, etc, etc. Sanderson mentioned tribute in this book, but that’s the first hint we’ve had.

[Zoinks]

Shoot, I never thought of that. I suppose you could fanwank an explanation that since Tar Valon is a great trading city (I think this was mentioned in the books), then the Aes Sedai probably make loads of money on the customs taxes and on taxing the city people. I wonder if that would be enough to run a major city, provide upkeep for the White Tower, maintain a standing army, support a major spy network, and give a generous stipend to a thousand economically unproductive women most of whom live like aristocrats. I wonder, are Aes Sedai advisors paid or is it pro bono work? Probably the latter, I assume. I also wonder if there are class tensions between the Aes Sedai who come from nobility or a rich merchant family versus the farmers’ daughters. If you think about it, some Ajahs like the Red or the Gray, whose duties would involve lots of travelling, would be easier to go into if you had estates in different countries, whereas for the Brown or the White you could mostly stay in Tar Valon since it’s basically the world’s best university anyway and I doubt they have academic conferences in Cairhien or whatever. Plus kings and high ladies would probably prefer to speak to a fellow aristocrat than some jumped-up fisherman’s daughter, who would likely feel ill at ease outside of her socioeconomic milieu.

ETA: Cleared up some verbiage.

[XT]

@Smeghead

Right. I’ve also always wondered how the White Tower manages to pay a thousand or so women a “comfortable allowance”, not to mention all the novices, Accepted, servants, guards, etc, etc, etc. Sanderson mentioned tribute in this book, but that’s the first hint we’ve had.

I always assumed it was similar to the way the Catholic Church manages to pay it’s way…it’s been around for thousands of years, it has investments all over the place, and it probably has quite a bit in the way of donations and possibly acts as a bank in some cases, holding precious items and goods. Also, they started off with quite a bit of wealth during the original fall…remember the wagon loads of goods they were getting out of the wreck in (I think) book 4? Sure, they put the Aiel in charge of part a lot of the magic items, but that was because they were the last to leave. They probably came out with a lot of heart stone items, gold, jewels, and other things of value.

It doesn’t seem that much of a stretch that they would have huge resources. No idea how the Aiel would get all the wood for their spears though…that’s definitely a mystery…

-XT

[Merijeek]

@Zoinks

Shoot, I never thought of that. I suppose you could fanwank an explanation that since Tar Valon is a great trading city (I think this was mentioned in the books), then the Aes Sedai probably make loads of money on the customs taxes and on taxing the city people. I wonder if that would be enough to run a major city, provide upkeep for the White Tower, maintain a standing army, support a major spy network, and give a generous stipend to a thousand economically unproductive women most of whom live like aristocrats. I wonder, are Aes Sedai advisors paid or is it pro bono work? Probably the latter, I assume. I also wonder if there are class tensions between the Aes Sedai who come from nobility or a rich merchant family versus the farmers’ daughters. If you think about it, some Ajahs like the Red or the Gray, whose duties would involve lots of travelling, would be easier to go into if you had estates in different countries, whereas for the Brown or the White you could mostly stay in Tar Valon since it’s basically the world’s best university anyway and I doubt they have academic conferences in Cairhien or whatever. Plus kings and high ladies would probably prefer to speak to a fellow aristocrat than some jumped-up fisherman’s daughter, who would likely feel ill at ease outside of her socioeconomic milieu.

ETA: Cleared up some verbiage.

Apart from taxing one of the world’s biggest cities (and keeping in mind that there are no nobles there getting their cut that we’ve seen), I always figured that most of their money actually came from pretty much every throne out there paying protection to the Aes Sedai.

Need a male channeler taken care of? I’m sorry, but Murandy’s accounts are kind of behind. Perhaps a donation?

Don’t want us to interfere in your nation? That’ll cost. It’d be a shame if something bad happened to such a fine country…

-Joe

[XT]

…although, come to think of it, wasn’t there mention that the Aiel control part of the silk trade caravan routes through their territory? If I’m remembering correctly then that could explain where they get the wood for their spears, since the silk trade made a lot of desert nomadic peoples in our universe quite wealthy, and got them access to things like spears even though they lived in a desert.

-XT

[Smeghead]

Also, peddlers came freely into the Waste - the Aiel had access to all sorts of stuff from the rest of Randland.

[Zoinks]

@Merijeek

Apart from taxing one of the world’s biggest cities (and keeping in mind that there are no nobles there getting their cut that we’ve seen), I always figured that most of their money actually came from pretty much every throne out there paying protection to the Aes Sedai.

Need a male channeler taken care of? I’m sorry, but Murandy’s accounts are kind of behind. Perhaps a donation?

Don’t want us to interfere in your nation? That’ll cost. It’d be a shame if something bad happened to such a fine country…

I like the protection racket angle, though I can’t remember if male channellers were more or less rare before Rand showed up - wasn’t there something in Book 1 about the Aes Sedai worrying that they were culling the channelling genes out of the general population, hence fewer Aes Sedai? Were male channellers also mentioned?

@xtisme

…although, come to think of it, wasn’t there mention that the Aiel control part of the silk trade caravan routes through their territory? If I’m remembering correctly then that could explain where they get the wood for their spears, since the silk trade made a lot of desert nomadic peoples in our universe quite wealthy, and got them access to things like spears even though they lived in a desert.

-XT

@Smeghead

Also, peddlers came freely into the Waste - the Aiel had access to all sorts of stuff from the rest of Randland.

Sure, but the impression I got was that these trading missions were haphazard and done by the individual traders’ initiative. What if there was a wetlander war and few traders could visit a particular clan for a couple of years? Sure, they could trade with the Ogier and the Sharans, but that would certainly affect their supplies adversely, thus affecting their military standing. And the only peddlers we saw carried high-value items like books and jewelry, not lumber. Plus the Aiel don’t sound the type to contract merchants to deliver goods.

And if we’re going to bring the real world in then I should mention that historical chiefdoms did not operate like these Aiel clans do. For one, there was a lot more political manoeuvring, since the essence of a chiefdom is that chiefs don’t inherit authority, they gain it through political deals, personal charisma, renown in battle, favourable marriages and alliances, religious backing, and a whole mess of other ways (and combinations thereof). Which makes a chief’s position more precarious than a king’s since he can’t just pay people to be loyal, which means he can’t just willy-nilly order people around. Also, since the warriors in a chiefdom are more independent than professional soldiers, they’re more likely to retreat and hide than fight to the last man, there being no percentage in suicidal last stands. “Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori” is not a sentiment espoused by warriors of a chiefdom.

But at this point I’m over-analyzing it since Jordan was clearly going for some noble savage ideal of proud warriors etc versus the degenerate aesthetes of Cairhien and such.

[XT]

@Zoinks

Sure, but the impression I got was that these trading missions were haphazard and done by the individual traders’ initiative. What if there was a wetlander war and few traders could visit a particular clan for a couple of years? Sure, they could trade with the Ogier and the Sharans, but that would certainly affect their supplies adversely, thus affecting their military standing. And the only peddlers we saw carried high-value items like books and jewelry, not lumber. Plus the Aiel don’t sound the type to contract merchants to deliver goods.

Well, trade would come from both directions, and they might trade for raw materials like wood and iron from several different sources. I had just the opposite impression as you, actually, since IIRC much of Cairhien(sp?)'s wealth came from their trade with and through Aiel lands. I don’t recall off the top of my head what the lands where the silk came from (Shara?), but my guess is that the trade would be mega-lucrative for the Aiel, and they could most likely get anything they needed.

And if we’re going to bring the real world in then I should mention that historical chiefdoms did not operate like these Aiel clans do. For one, there was a lot more political manoeuvring, since the essence of a chiefdom is that chiefs don’t inherit authority, they gain it through political deals, personal charisma, renown in battle, favourable marriages and alliances, religious backing, and a whole mess of other ways (and combinations thereof). Which makes a chief’s position more precarious than a king’s since he can’t just pay people to be loyal, which means he can’t just willy-nilly order people around. Also, since the warriors in a chiefdom are more independent than professional soldiers, they’re more likely to retreat and hide than fight to the last man, there being no percentage in suicidal last stands. “Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori” is not a sentiment espoused by warriors of a chiefdom.

I think of the Aiel as somewhat analogous to the various steppe tribes like the Mongols (without the horses of course) crossed with the Bedouin, with a similar clan type structure. Certainly both groups were able to get materials that weren’t native to their own lands. But I think that people are over analyzing all this stuff…really, as a story it’s not important how they got their spears, only that there is some plausible way they COULD get them. Sort of like it’s not really important how Tar Valon got it’s wealth, only that there is some plausible way they COULD have gotten it or maintained it. Neither is central to the story, and frankly the story is intricate enough without any more details being added.

-XT

[Clothahump]

@MaxTheVool

Well, the first posthumous volume is out, finished by Brandon Sanderson, and…

…snip…

What does everyone else think?

I think the series should have ended back around volume 3.

[Smeghead]

Thanks for that tremendously useful contribution to the discussion.

[MOIDALIZE]

I made it 250 pages into the first book and gave up because I hated every female character.

[Dob]

@MOIDALIZE

I made it 250 pages into the first book and gave up because I hated every female character.

Well maybe like Rand, Mat, and Perrin you just dont understand women!

[Clothahump]

@Smeghead

Thanks for that tremendously useful contribution to the discussion.

You’re welcome.

[n8love]

a few questions and comments

does rand have to enter tarmon gaidon as a force for light, or does he just have to be present in order for the light to have a chance? betraying the dark one may be as effective as anything else. may be way off base but ive never heard anyone talk about it (mebe because im way off base). an actual quote would be awesome if anyone wants to tell me thats impossible and im dumb. sometimes i am dumb.

also, thoughts on randland being our world on a different turn? read the books years ago and just reread, never visited any forums to hear theories. if thats too much hijack, start a new thread and pm me bout it if u dont mind.

the reason the girls get tarped all the time is simple. they are not teveren. i dont think its anything about them being easily tricked, but consider the male main characters instead; three are taveren, one is a battle tested warder to an AS who is considerably more experienced, and one is an ogier who are careful not to “put a long handle on their axe”. if theres a tarp to fall in, the dupe must be important enough to make you care, but its unlikely that those boys or the more seasoned AS would be the victims.

finally, not to be all “well what have you ever written?” about it, but idk if everyone understands that the long portions of describing cities and palaces and dress in the entire series all make it better. if you want all action and instant gratification and move the plot move the plot move the plot, go turn on your television. try reading some hemingway; story is completely a biproduct of character development and sensory detail, and somehow hes considered the greatest american author , oh idk, ever. the descriptive parts of every wot may take physically longer to read than the battles where you’re tearing through pages and your heart is racing, but each of them makes randland more complete and real. stop whining. Mebe read faster…