What does it mean when someone says a band has “sold out”? I usually hear it from self-styled music experts who drop in a conversation “They were great, until they sold out”. Everyone else wants to look as “angst-y” and nods their head solemnly.
But what does it really mean?
One definition of “selling out” would be a band or soloist who comes out of the gate telling the world how much they hate commercialism and product endorsement and ends doing a Coke commercial in Sweden. There used to be (it may still exist) a website showing commercials by American celebs (mostly) doing commercials in foreign commercials knowing that Americans (especially critics) would be unlikely to see them.
Also, David Bowie admitted he wrote Let’s Dance to be as commercial as possible because he needed the money. He sold out, but at least he was honest about it.
Generally, it means that the band has become popular enough that the cult fans have no choice but to share their heroes with the world at large. Every music fan deals with it at some point. I didn’t like having to share R.E.M., but I continued to dig their music.
I’ve always seen “selling out” as going against whatever values the band or singer set themselves up with when they started. Britney Spears or a boy band could never sell out because they were started as money making entities to begin with. A band that’s “all about the music” that then goes and does product endorsements has sold out.
Metallica is an excellent example of a band who sold out. Prior to the aptly named “Black Album” the band represented the epitome of underground heavy metal music. A band who accomplished a considerable amount with little to no airplay. They said they would never make a video and to quote one of their songs:
Well, 1991 rolls along and they release a hard rock album. One that contains a ballad nonetheless ! After Nothing Else Matters nothing Metallica ever did mattered much to the old guard heavy metal fans. Their songs were played on Top 40 radio, they made video after video. It was a successful but obvious attempt to “sell out”.
Their sound changed. Their attitude changed (hanging out with Ricki Martin as it were). Their look changed. The ultimate let down was their disgusting rally against Napster. After all, wasn’t this the band who made their mark in the undergroud tape-trading scene in the early 80s ?
Yikes. If you want to know what a sell out is, look no further than this goup of fancy-pansies.
For the most part, I agree that the whole “sell-out” thing is nonsense. But I admit that occasionally, I get a visceral reaction to something a band has done that just makes me think: they put money above their music. To me, that’s the only thing that makes a sell-out… not making more melodic music (which often seems to be the main criteria for “selling-out” in punk–either that or being on MTV) but doing something for the money at the expense of the music.
Don’t get me wrong – I realize a band is a job, and people in bands need money just as much as the next person, and I have absolutely no problem with that. But I think there’s a difference between selling things to make a (very good if that’s the case) living and selling things only to fleece your fans. I think real selling-out is very rare, though.
The “having to share” thing is definitely true too. I can understand it, though. A lot of the semi-literate morons who spout it don’t deserve much sympathy… but I can still understand the fear that underlies it. Bands in the “underground” often have a huge amount of communication with their fans. A concert at a tiny club has a different atmosphere than one at a stadium or a larger venue. People see a future where the band they love is behind a barrier of security guards at every concert and never gets near the masses… if you’re used to the band jumping in the pit with the crowd, it hurts to think you’re gonna lose that.
[upon preview: I also agree with Silentgoldfish. If Anti-Flag signed with Sony or if NOFX started getting played on MTV, I’d consider that a sell-out.]
Tana
When dicussing bands that have “sold out,” I try to remind myself that they exist apart from their fans’ image of them. For example, perhaps a band has started out saying that they would never do comercial endorsements, etc. Later, though, their opinions might change. it could be because of money, but it could also simply be that human beings in general tend to mellow as they get older, and causes that seemed worth fighting for when they were 22 don’t seem so important now that they’re 42. So why not do a commercial?
What has the band really done that is so wrong? Why must they be forced not to “betray their fans” at the risk of betraying themselves?
I admit that sometimes bands “selling out” makes me regard them with derision as artists, but I can’t fault them as human beings. We’ve all got a life to live.
However, I do think there are instances where it can get out of control. I was never a huge Metallica fan to begin with, but their whole battle with Napster really pissed me off. I realize that music means big money for a lot of these bands, but it really looked like they had totally forgotten what it was like to be a young music fan. It also made me think that they put their own money before the future livelyhood of younger bands. I understand them wanting to protect their assets as businessmen (much as I hate referring to songs as “assets”), but it could have been done more gracefully.
So, in your opinion, a band isn’t allowed to change it’s value system or ideals, but MUST stick with the same ones that they had way back when they were playing for 3 people in someone’s back yard.
Is that about right?
So much for artistic growth.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Way back in 1967: The Who Sell Out
Bands sell out when I don’t like them anymore.
Bands progress when I like their new material better.
YMMV.
I never said that it was my opinion, just that when someone says a band has sold out that’s what they mean.
Don’t be so quick to get your back up, you’ll find life a lot less stressful that way.
Oh, and :rolleyes: :rolleyes: yourself. God I hate that smiley.
The problem with “selling out” isn’t moral, it’s PRACTICAL!
Screenwriter WIlliam Goldman said (famously) that in Hollywood, “No one knows anything.” That’s the embarrassing secret in the big studios. Nobody has a clue whether a given movie is going to be any good, OR whether it’s going to be a big hit. Oh, every studio has a host of marketing experts to tell them exactly what’s going to sell, but in reality, studios are guessing. NOBODY in Hollywood predicted that “My Big Fat Greek Wedding” would make 10 times as much money as “Blue Crush.”
So, even though Hollywood is filled with people who WANT to make products that will appeal to huge audiences and make them a lot of money, nobody in Hollywood really knows what’s going to sell! In short, virtually everyone WANTS to sell out, but nobody knows quite how!
It’s the same in the music business. You think it’s EASY to “sell out”? You think your favorite obscure band COULD sell 10 million albums any time it wants to, but has too much integrity? Please! The music business is FILLED with people EAGER to pander to the mass audience, who are trying their best to pander to the mass audience, and MOST of them are failing miserably.
The Backstreet Boys used to be immensely popular, but NOW they can’t seem to find an audience. It’s not because they were more talented four years ago than they are now, or because their songs have gotten worse. But the market (meaning us music fans) is fickle. People’s tastes and interests change quickly, and what we loved in the Spring bores us silly in the Fall. Ask Hootie and the Blowfish.
“Selling out” is easy. It’s getting BOUGHT that’s difficult.
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Can any artist change without someone accusing them of selling out?
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Old guard heavy metal fans is code for teenage boys, right?
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How many musical artist have managed to remain popular in the long term without changing? Motley Crue and Anthrax anyone?
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At the time did they have objections to people distributing their music in such a fashion?
Dude, they’re not hard core. :rolleyes:
Marc
To quote South Park…“If you work in the entertainment business and you make money, you’re a sellout.”
Not that that’s true, but I thought it deserved mention.
To me, selling out is when a band puts commercial concerns ahead of artistic or personal ones.
Writing and recording your songs because that’s what’s in your soul and it has to come out is an artistic concern. Changing your style because what appeals to you changes and you have changed and grown as a person is an artistic concern. Changing your views on videos and endorsements because you have changed as a person is personal growth.
Changing your style because your Marketing people tell you that’s what’s big now is a commercial concern. Changing your look and sound to try to appeal to a wider audience in order to make more money is a commercial concern. Changing your views on videos and endorsements because you want to make some more bank is commercial.
These are selling out. These are things that Metallica (for example) did.
I’d like to comment about the whole idea of “selling out” from a musicians point of view. I have been playing guitar for 20 years (I started when I was 11) and made my living playing bars and other shows for a good number of years. I started playing bars when I was 16. At that time I had the mentality that “If it wasn’t heavy, loud and angry” it sucked.
Well, I grew up. I found out that there are other types of music that are really valid and powerful. I found wonderful music being made by people with different styles. Steve Morse, Lyle Lovette and K.D. Lang come to mind when I think about this. I then found Chet Atkins, Les Paul and Roy Clark. (BTW, Roy Clark is the most talented guy I have ever seen. He can play anything and play it well) I then found classical music. Bach, Paganini and Sor. I expanded my musical vision by listening to these people. Did I sell out? No, I grew. That is what people do.
Most people who accuse bands of “selling out” are stuck in whatever little genre they grew up with and refuse to admit that people grow and change. The fact that these people say things like “They changed their looks which is proof that they sold out” just makes my point. They are stuck in their little world where they are hip and only a small portion of hip people can like a band. If a band gets big then they are automatically “Sell Outs”.
The people who scream “Sell Out” also have this thing that bands cannot adapt to new technology. For example one poster in this thread meantioned the fact that Metallica made a video. He then claims the fact that Metallica made a video is proof that Metallica sold out. Aparently the fact that the music industry moved from radio to MTV doesn’t matter. I really wonder if this guy thinks Metallica should go back to 1986 and ignore MTV. I also wonder if he thinks bands having a website is “Selling Out”. He probably does because then he, and his little friends, would be really hip by being the only Metallica fans out there.
Napster. For those who dissed on Metallica for being against Napster I have a simple question. Would you allow me and millions of others to steal your money from you? Would you allow me to take your food and money from you? I didn’t think so. While you may not want to admit it Napster was stealing money from artists. (And, in case you didn’t know, most artist do not make much money. In fact 9 out of 10 bands lose money. So it’s not like you are taking cents from a millionaire)
I still love loud angry music. It has a big place in my heart because it was my first love. At the same time I learned to play other styles which has improved my creativity.
Slee
You see, if I you take food and money from me, I no longer have food and money. If you download a song from Napster, Metallica still has the song. Oh, and I’ve made three songs. Anyone is welcome to steal them off me for personal use.
Show me how Napster was taking money from artists. Give me the figures.
Strange that most of the bands who cared about the Napster deal were millionaires, then. All they did was prevent younger, less rich bands from gaining exposure. I haven’t bought every single Death Cab For Cutie album because I heard them on the radio. I heard them through Napster. Same with The Promise Ring, The Get Up Kids, Modest Mouse, Cursive, Belle and Sebastian, The Devoted Few, The Moldy Peaches or Ozomatli.
Well, maybe you should cut these bands some slack and help them find a new audience in people like me, rather than make sure that some thirteen year old kid, buys Metallica’s Black album rather than downloads a few tracks from Napster.
MGibson, Metallica did sell out. If you hear Kill 'Em All, it’s obvious that their music was Heavy Meatal: great guitar solos and great music by Dave Mustaine. The best Metallica songs are from the Mustaine era…
Later, all their songs had one or two different riffs, and they stayed with that. That’s not Heavy Metal. Listen to the song Mama Said… What’s That??? Why did they make this song???
Instead, Mustaine followed making good music with Megadeth… (not saying Megadeth didn’t sell out. That can be argued)
Look at Metallica in the video of I Disappear, and tell me that that’s not a selling out… They look like a pop band, but playing “rock”.
For me that’s the best example of a band selling out.
Another example IMHO is Pink Floyd
Even me (a Pink Floyd) fan, think that they sold out with The Division Bell. Maybe they needed the money, and they knew that Pink Floyd’s fans would buy the album and will go to their concerts. IMHO it was an obvious “not for the music” album (in contrast with Dark Side Of The Moon).
I’m not saying that i dislike the album (i like a lot of songs), but it was an attempt to make an album that would give a good end to PF’s carrer (not hard after A Momentary Lapse Of Reason).
Well, as far as your last point goes, you are making a choice to give your music away. Metallica never had the chance to make the choice, people started giving Metallica’s (and other bands) music away for free without asking them. At the same time Metallica has always encouraged their fans to make bootlegs at concerts and trade them. But there is a huge difference between a bootleg and a studio recording.
Well, first, the figures really don’t matter. If one person downloaded a full Metallica album, or even one song, then Metallica lost money. It is theft. Also the statement that “Metallica still has the song” is meaningless if no one has to pay Metallica for the song. At the same time here are some numbers:
“The study also claimed that 87 percent or more of the songs copied and downloaded on Napster were copyrighted.” From here.
Also, IIRC, Metallica compiled a list of 187,000 Napster users who downloaded an unrealesed song. If Metallica only makes a buck for that song as a single then Metallica lost $187,000. (BTW, I tried googling for a cite but couldn’t find one. If someone finds a cite, either way, that would be great)
Wow, the logic with your last statemnet escapes me. Metallica was upset because Napster was giving away Metallicas music for free. In fact most of the music traded on Napster was from major bands. So Metallica objected to having their music ripped off and that somehow caused new bands from gaining a new audience? Sorry, that just doesn’t follow. If Napster put copywrite protections in place we wouldn’t be discussing this. (To be honest, I am not sure how Napster could have put decent copywriter protections in place and I have been working with computers and programing for years. It is a tricky problem) Also, you meantion that some bands you like were played on the radio. Well, guess what? Radio stations pay money to play songs on air. The money is split based on which songs get the most air time. So hearing a song on the radio isn’t free. The band gets paid. You don’t pay for it directly, the advertisers pay the station and some of that money goes to the artists making the music.
If Napster only had new bands and did not trade music from already existing bands I would not have a problem with it.
ZooMetropolis,
You need to get your story straight. Mustain was kicked out of the band before “Kill 'Em All” was recorded. Mustain co-wrote some of the songs on the album but he did not play on it. So the solos were not his. From this site it appears that Mustain only co-wrote 3 songs on that album. And 'Ride the Lightening" is a much better album than “Kill 'Em All”.
And, once again, growing musically is not selling out. If growing musically was a ‘bad’ thing then we’d all be doing jigs in the street.
Slee