(This is a real situation that has come up in the poetry world, so I’m using poetry as an example, but substitute any form of association or publication you want.)
Imagine a magazine that publishes poetry. Say 20 poems per issue.
Interspersed between the poems are various articles and editorials. Those articles deal either with poetry or with the political views of the editor, which include Holocaust denial, anti-Semitism, and Neo-Nazism.
You pick up the magazine at the dentist’s office. You recognize a couple of poets’ names, including Horace B. Highbody, and expect the magazine to be good. Then, you read the articles.
What would your assumptions be (if any) about Horace B. Highbody?
Imagine the magazine only contains poetry and articles about poetry, while the editor is identified as Klaus Von Whiteguy, a name you recognize as a Neo-Nazi who maintains a Neo-Nazi website.
What would your assumptions be (if any) about Horace B. Highbody?
Hmm… The first thing I’d do, after getting over my shock with your first situation, would be to check out the masthead on the magazine - if the magazine is relatively new, I’d assume that Horace had no idea of the editorial bias of the magazine, and give him a provisional bye.
With the second? It’s kinda like selling to something owned by the Murdoch empire. I don’t agree with much that Murdoch believes in, but I believe that he owns some of the better venues for the written word. (Not news reporting, but the impression I have is that he does have a part in a lot of the magazine world, too.) As long as Horace is relatively sure that the venue he’s selling to isn’t going to be using his works to appear to endorse a hateful position, no matter what Klaus Von Whiteguy might do with the money he makes from the magazine, I don’t see any reason to castigate Horace there.
IMNSHO, there’s a vast difference between what the owner/publisher of a work might do with his or her private time and monies, than what the magazine or work might be espousing. Klaus Von Whiteguy is probably an ass of the first water, but if he can choose good poetry, there’s no reason to think he couldn’t publish a good poetry magazine.
ETA: My working assumption would be that Horace B. Highboy was simply looking for a market for his work, and may not have vetted that market as thoroughly as he should have for your first situation. For the second, there’s nothing else to say than that Horace is selling poetry to what sounds like a decent rag.
Mind you, if your first situation had Horace selling to a magazine long known for its racist screeds I’d have a different view of the matter, and assume he supports or agrees with the positions that the magazine takes.
The real situation is something in between the two scenarios I outlined. The magazine never comes right out and espouses Neo-Nazi views, but it steps up to the line at times, and the “official” website for the journal goes right over the line.
I ask the question because a lot of people in the poetry world seem to want to continue to get published by Klaus while not being tarnished by his actions–something I consider pretty damned reprehensible, personally.
Well, I’m enough of a technophile that if a magazine has a web presence that’s supported by the same publisher, I cannot see a difference between the web presence and the dead tree version. In which case Horace B. Highboy is, at the very least, implying that he doesn’t care if his work is associated with that filth. And it becomes likely, to my mind, that Horace sees nothing wrong with the views being published on the website. So, in that case, I would be tarring Horace with the same brush I use for Von Whiteguy.
Again, this is assuming that the web presence has been like this for at least a year or so. AIUI that’s not an unreasonable time lag between purchase of a work and publication. If Von Whiteguy has had the website up and running for only a few months, Horace will get a bye from me, as stated above.
At first brush I am inclined to agree with you. I do wonder, how tight is the market for poetry, though? Is it a matter of ‘publish with Klaus, or don’t publish’? Or is it simply, ‘But everyone knows Klaus’ mag, I must be seen there!'?
I’m not sure what you mean here - is the magazine explicity stating racist crap, now? Or is that gone from the current editions?
Your question is reminding me of the works and problems of Leni Riefenstahl. Whom is credited with a number of pioneering accomplishments, even though her post-war life suffered because of her support of the Nazis. I’m not sure that it was right that all her works after the war were tarred by her actions in support of the Nazis. But I’m not sure it was wrong, either.
I’m just thinking that she makes an excellent example for the view that people can be lousy shits and still have the ability to be or recognize good art.
Generally, any poem is publishable somewhere. There are tons of journals, and since none of them pay (well, there are a handful that pay a couple of dollars) there’s a lot of competition for the poems.
On the other hand, Klaus’s journal has some fame for publishing specific types of poems that perhaps don’t have as many outlets as some other types. (I can be more specific, but I’m not sure how specific the conversation needs to get.)
jsgoddess, no need to be more specific for me. I’ll stand by my first brush view, then. Saying that there aren’t as many other outlets for specific kinds of poetry is very different from saying there are no other outlets for those specific kinds of poetry.
IOW - one makes choices and must, therefore, accept the consequences of those choices.
Oh, I’m well aware of the various vanity publishing frauds that are linked with some of the advertized “poetry” contests. I just never got into writing poetry enough to actually look to see the state of the legitimate market for it.
Yes, it was meant to be in response to your post. Magazines evolve, after all. Even if your hypothetical magazine were in publication in 1933, and had been continually published since that time to the present-day, being published by the same person, who still believes in the Nazi message - I still don’t see that as being an automatic reason to assume that the magazine would still be openly espousing genocide, anti-Semitism, and racial purity.
For example, there are a number of editorial positions that have been taken by newspapers and magazines that have been proven to be embarassingly wrong: The NYT’s editorial comment to Dr. Goddard and the 1969 apology for that comes to mind, as an extreme and specific example of this. Not to imply it’s a parallel case for the social ills being espoused, but my understanding has always been that lobotomies, and sterilization of the “mentally infirm” have both been praised and espoused openly by magazines or newspapers that still in print today.
To restate my question: Is your hypothetical magazine publishing current editorials and articles in support of anti-Semitism, or is that something that your Nazi publisher is keeping seperate from the magazine, now?
OtakuLoki: I guess I was unclear. I meant the poet was active circa 1933, along with the pro-Nazi editor. The hypothetical magazine may or may not exist now, and if it does its current form is not relevant. Does a poet who sold poetry to the 1933 pro-Nazi editor deserve to be honored these days? Should a park be named after him?
Derleth, I don’t know whether he or she should still be honored today for works sold then. On the other hand, I suspect that the list of known poets who said positive things about Hitler and the Nazis in the 30s would shock a lot of people.
Would I object to giving new honors to a poet who’s breakthrough work was published in that manner? Yes. Would I fight to remove current honors for a poet published in that manner? Probably not.
I suspect you have a specific poet or two in mind. If so, whom are you thinking about?
I agree completely. I’ve hated all of his poetry that I’ve had to read. Awful, pretentious crap. (Though I’ll admit I can’t claim to have read much of it, just those selections required for a relatively thorough grounding in modern literature for a couple of survey courses. While poetry is not my first love, I will look for and read those poets whose work I was exposed to that I enjoyed. Neither Pound nor Elliot did not make that cut. )
Oh. That’s what you meant.
I’ll admit that seeing he was awarded a prize from the Library of Congress in 1948, while incarcerated in an asylum because of his “insanity” during the war years looks more than a little shifty. Then again, there are people who will forgive any crimes for a person they view as being above the norm, in sports, science, or art.
On a more serious level - how do you regard the propaganda work that P.G. Wodehouse did for the Nazis? I mention it as a similar circumstance, but recognize that the details are very different.
(link is to a site describing the scam that is