When are we going to have a TV show about Jews?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

PL—Yeah, I remember that episode, too. But to their credit, there was also one where Buddy was bar mitzvahed.

As for atheists, I’ve never watched “ER,” “X-Files,” “Buffy” or “Law & Order.” Did those characters actually say—as Maddie Hayes did—that they do not believe in God?

And I repeat what I said about “Seinfeld” and “Mad About You.” They were faux-Jews . . . Never did any of them say or do anything to actually indicate their Judaism; they just “seemed Jewish.” I.e., sarcastic NY intellectuals.

Howcum they’ve never rerun “The Goldbergs?” Not on kinetoscope, maybe?

22

Well, if we are listing show that had Jewish characters lets not forget science fiction. Babylon 5 had Susan Ivanova(played by Claudia Christian, hmm odd I just noticed her LAST name) Lt. Commander Ivanova was second in command of the station, and she was Jewish, and Russian to boot. Quite a point was made of her ethnicity and religion.

23

An interesting point, and I tend to agree. In “Will & Grace” the gayness of Will and John is so much a part of the plot it’s almost a character in it’s own right. But Jewishness is only a backdrop for the shows mentioned above.
Plus, if you are not from the Northeast (and a surprising number of Amereicans aren’t) it may not even be obvious that the characters from those shows are meant to be Jewish. I grew up in Ohio watching “Seinfeld” and “Mad About You” religiously, and I never had a clue that any character was meant to be Jewish until I read it online somewhere a year or two ago. I’ve knowingly met only a few Jews in my life, and the was nothing about them that was the least bit out of the ordinary. By that I mean, there’s no way anyone could’ve pegged them as “Jewish.” It came as a great surprise to me that people could watch “Seinfeld” and identify a “Jewish” character.

24

Unfortunately, the name “Ivanova” is about as Russian as a name can be. I found it hard to understand how her father could be Jewish with a name like “Ivanov.”

But very few American writers understand Russian names – I recall one novel where the author used a female name for a male character, and in “Crime and Punishment,” few people realize the policeman who hounds Roskolnikof (called “Porphyrius Petrovitch”) is never given a last name (“Petrovich” is NOT a last name).

No. Gleason chose the name “Kramden” because he wanted no ethnic connotations whatsoever.

25

Rugrats centers on a Jewish family. They don’t go into much detail, and don’t even mention God in the Passover or Chanukah specials, but the Pickles are Jews. They did a Christmas show, too, but don’t let that distract you. The Jewish Christmas phenomenon is a very strange one deserving its own Cecil article. Did you know the author of “White Christmas” was Irving Berlin?

26

Re: Seinfeld, Jerry was most obviously Jewish and a couple of plotlines centered around this (making out with his girlfriend during Schindler’s List springs to mind). I’m pretty sure George was Jewish, but I couldn’t give you a cite and base it more on his parents and the fact that him and Jerry were childhood friends (which doesn’t mean anything, really). Kramer was not Jewish at all. There was an episode where he holds a Jewish Singles Mixer and Jerry asks him the obvious question of why he’s holding one since he (Kramer) isn’t Jewish. I’m also almost certain that Elaine wasn’t Jewish (this is the most times I’ve typed the word ‘Jewish’ in one sitting) based on the epsiode where all the Jewish guys/young boys are hitting on her and her seeing a minister with Putty (Putti?) in the episode where Putty/Putti tells her she’s going to hell.

As for Rugrats, they might not act Jewish in the TV show, but they used to have a horrible comic in the Chicago Tribune that had a Jewish slant in it as often as not.

Re: “Ivanov”, I used to date a Jewish girl who was from Russia. They came here and got into a the country on grounds of religious harassment in the old country (actually, they just wanted to go to America and used that as an excuse to get in the front door) so there’s obviously some population of Russian Jews.

27

Pardon, Reality Chuck, but are you really saying that having a very Russian name precludes being Jewish? During the 1970s (sorry, don’t have the exact dates on me), Jews were actively encouraged to leave the Soviet Union and many came to the United States. It’s perfectly possible for someone to have a very Russian name (Leonid, for example) and be Jewish. I’ve known several who moved to the United States under those circumstances.

Don’t know about the television programs, but thought I’d throw that out.

28

Lizard said: Plus, if you are not from the Northeast (and a surprising number of Americans aren’t) it may not even be obvious that the characters from those shows are meant to be Jewish. I grew up in Ohio watching “Seinfeld” and “Mad About You” religiously, and I never had a clue that any character was meant to be Jewish until I read it online somewhere a year or two ago.

Excellent point. I’m from the Shenango Valley in western Pennsylvania, originally. I grew up just fifteen miles east of Youngstown, Ohio, which is a world away from Philadelphia or any other East Coast enclave. Sure, there were Jews in the Shenango Valley, but you couldn’t pick them out of a crowd any more easily than you could a Catholic or a Presbyterian.

When I transferred to Penn State’s main campus in 1989, my roommate in the dorms there was from Philadelphia and was almost a stereotypical Jew. Me, I couldn’t tell, which surprised others, and stunned him. He was actually pleased that his being Jewish wasn’t apparent to me. This was the beginning of my learning to recognize what an East Coast Jew looks and acts like. It was a weird lesson, since it always seemed rude to me to presume anyone’s ethnic, religious or political affiliation without hearing the facts straight from that person’s mouth. Now I know better.

Through my years at Penn State, I met other Jews, some of whom were apparently Jewish and some of whom were not. One thing I noticed is that Jews usually like it when you can guess that they’re Jewish, and if you don’t pick up on what they presume to be obvious signals, they often get offended. I now live in New York City, where this tendency is stronger.

I think the reason that Jewish TV shows seem to be lacking is that American TV shows are disproportionately set in New York (and Los Angeles). As Lizard pointed out, most Americans don’t live in the Northeast, yet most TV shows are set there. Since many TV shows such as Will and Grace, Seinfeld, Friends, The Single Guy, Bosom Buddies, etc., are set in New York yet geared for the general population, the lack of Jewish (or Black, or Hispanic) culture that is part of the modern New York quotidian experience is conspicuous by its absence. Sure, you don’t have a Jewish population in, say, Cincinnati that strongly resembles the Jewish population of New York, so what’s the point in putting a New York-style Jewish population on the TV screens of southern Ohio? Culturally, there isn’t much more than a nominal rapport between Hamilton County and Queens County.

Television has plenty of New York-based shows but seldom to they actually portray life in the city. The closest I’ve ever seen were All in the Family and The Days and Nights of Molly Dodd. The success of these shows is mostly related to their focus on the lives of people in specific situations, rather than Friends, which purports to show New York life but could just as easily work in Minneapolis or Omaha or Tucson. Friends works because of its universality, showing not New Yorkers but people who are essentially Midwesterners who have jobs that don’t pay enough to support their lifestyles, much less pay the rent on their stunning apartments.

But back to Jewish TV: I’ve never heard of The Goldbergs, but there have been others. Does anyone remember Rhoda? The Nanny is another good example that someone pointed out. The trick to a shows survival is for it to appeal to audiences in as many markets as possible. Why would northeastern Jewish culture have much appeal in suburban Oklahoma City? Granted, anything can be done well, and I’m sure that a show centered on this regional culture can resonate with the whole country. But by and large people like to see a mirror of their own lives on TV, so if a show about northeastern Jews is going to work in markets outside of the northeast, you need a certain number of goyim or else you’re going to alienate your audience.
<hijack>By the way: Mr. Belvedere was set in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania, which is just thirty miles south of my hometown of Hermitage, Pennsylvania. It contrived to capture the feeling of Pittsburgh and its surrounding areas and bedroom communities, but failed miserably. Family Ties did a better job of portraying Columbus, Ohio—though to be fair, Columbus doesn’t exactly have a distinct flavor—which might be why New York is a more interesting setting for TV shows…</hijack>

29

But the choice of “Ivanova” is more than just any Russian name. “Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov” is the Russian equivalent of “John Doe.” (“Ivanova” is the female version of “Ivanov,” BTW; her father’s last name was correctly identified as “Ivanov”.*) It’s hardly likely for a Russian Jew to change his name to something so identifiable with his persecutors.

Now it’s possible that Ivanova’s father had a Jewish mother and a Russian father. But using the name “Ivanova,” and making her Jewish would be like using the name “McCarthy” for an American Jew (I know of one with that name, actually). At the very least, there’s some explaining to do.

30

What? Nobody remembers Flying Blind? It was about a geeky Jewish guy who dates an outrageous shiksa. It starred Tea Leoni.

There may not be many shows that are explicitly about Jews, but there are any number which are all about Jewish humor. Seinfeld is only the most obvious example.

31

In my earlier post I mentioned Susan Ivanova of the show Babylon 5, and there have been several very interesting responses to it. But the idea she wouldn’t have such a Russian sounding name AND be Jewish doesn’t take into account that the show takes place 300 years(almost) in our future. Any number of interesting cultural shifts could have taken place. My own real surname is originally German, but we pronounce it English style and we have family members that most definitely are not your Aryan norm.

32

Was a time when a grounding in Yiddish and Jewish culture were required to get many of the jokes on sitcoms and Ed Sullivan. My kids can’t believe that, as short as thirty-five years ago, Yiddish was almost America’s second language.

What about “Bridget Loves Bernie?”

So, I wasn’t the only person who noticed that almost all of the actors playing Ferengi had “recognizably Jewish” names, like Armin Shimmerman (Quark)? I thought it was somebody’s idea of a joke.

33

Am I the only one who thought the Ferengi were supposed to be the ultimate ugly Americans, the way the Klingon Empire was the Soviet Union, and never picked up on any anti-Semitism in that show at all?

34

Now that there are more Muslims in America (more than Jews IIRC) when will we see a show featuring them?

Yes, I know that Danny Thomas’ Make Room for Daddy didn’t hide his Christian Arab background, but is America ready for a show with devout Muslims?

Or with Muslims that vehemently disagree with the Israeli government?

(Not to mention our large Asian population, Latinos from both Mexico and Central America, and Indians - besides the Simpson’s Apu.)

35

Or Bridget loves Bernie, or Mad About You… If I never see another fucking “Jewish-male-loves-his-forbidden-fruit-WASPY-blonde-goddess-princess-because-as-far-as-he’s-concerned-all-Jewish-women-are-fat-loud-or-his-mother” I will die a happy woman. Not a criticism of the so-called “WASPY blonde goddess-princess,” it’s a criticism of those Jewish male comedians/writers who are either working out their issues with their “domineering” mothers, or who are complaining that their relatives expect them to date those “unattractive” girls in their own religion.

Most of these examples of Jewish characters are of men, who (if I am not mistaken,) are unobservant and who are dating or married to non-Jewish women. Like Stewart on LA Law, or Joel on Northern Exposure. Not a thing wrong with that of course, and I wouldn’t change the concepts or characters. But just once, I’d like to see:

  1. Some Jewish characters that are in no way connected to New York, and in no way are connected to the “NYC Jew/JAP” sterotype. (By the way, I have used the offensive term ‘JAP’ here to illustrate a point. Don’t take it as license to use it in polite society.) Anyway, Seinfeld and the ‘Nanny,’ this means you!

  2. A sitcom where the Jewish male has a Jewish female for a mate or girlfriend. Or, perhaps, even one where it’s a Jewish female who is dating a non-Jewish male (it does happen.)

  3. {This is where, if I am not careful, I might get into trouble. [Too late?]} A non-NYC Jewish woman in a drama series who is, well, dating a man period. Defintely, lgbt characters have not had the presence on tv that Jewish characters (probably even Jewish women) have had. But…Willow on Buffy, Susan Ivanova on B5, Melanie on QaF, Julianna Marguiles in that new movie whose name I am forgetting…is four a trend? Well, Buffy’s the only one I can speak about with authority, and I wouldn’t change the Willow/Tara storyline (well, some of it, but that’s a different thread.) But it seems to me that the tv writers seem to think “Jewish/intellectual/feminist = lesbian/bisexual,” and that is not always the case.

Showing my freudian slip yet? Yes, I want to see more characters like me on tv. I have a sex life (or I used to,) and I’m tired of being represented by a stereotype, or by the ugly 3rd of the fantasy or triangle.

I don’t need or want a religious show, even if it’s my own religion. But we’re an ethnic group too. It has been done (Reasonable Doubts - Tess was Jewish, from Chicago, and unobtrusively dated Jewish men [usually Jewish.])

(By the way, I’d love to be proven wrong on any or all of these points, so please do try. And hell, one of my favorite real-life relationships is the one between my male Jewish friend, and his lovely blonde goddess WASP girlfriend. And he’s a New Yorker and she’s a midwestern no less.)

Oh yeah, I also want to see a Catholic woman struggle with reconciling her homosexuality with her family and religion. I have seen the pain this can cause in real life, and I think there is potential for good drama (and even, dare I say it, role modelship.) And I want a character to matter-of-factly be an atheist in the manner of so many great SDMBers: Character mit religion - “You don’t believe in God? But why? Do you hate him?” Witty, non-stereotype atheist - “No more than I hate the Easter Bunny, the Great Pumpkin, or Dubya’s intellectual acheivements.”

And I truly promise that I will go nowhere near the show’s dialogue.

36

The Ferengi were supposed to be Americans, not Jews. (I wasn’t aware that Wallace Shawn and Jeffrey Combs were Jewish names.) As noted, the Klingons were originally meant as commies, a post now taken over by the Romulans, and apparently the Cardassians round out the geopolitical metaphor by being a third-world dictatorship. (The Federation is apparently the European Union, despite everything being located in the Bay Area.)

37

Yankee Traders, as Data put it.

Except the Cardies were far from Third World until the Klingons and Dominion trashed them. They were a major technological and probably ecconomic power in the galaxy until then. Up there with the Klingons and Romulans. And by then, they’d dropped the dictatorship.

38

laughing As someone who just moved to Seattle after 2.5 years of living and going to school in Columbus, Ohio, I can personally attest that this statement is 100% correct. Columbus is the American McTown, so bland and average in every way that companies used to hold marketing surveys there to get a sense of what the “average” American thought. It’s not really a bad place to live though. The people are pretty down-to-earth, but with broader horizons than the people in other Midwestern towns. If my parents didn’t live in Ohio, it wouldn’t kill me to live in Columbus.

39

My theory that Ireland was settled by one of the Lost Tribes of Israel can be easily extended to include Scotland (wouldn’t Combs be Irish, anyway?). Although there is a lack of DIRECT evidence, such as names (ie: Cohen/Cohan, Bloom/Blum) and stereotypical foods (like corned beef) and the slight difficulty getting haggis classified as kosher (how would you drain the lungs of blood?), I think we can do it.

And Iolanthe, there are plenty of us goyische boys who find the forbidden fruit of Jewish women tempting. Maybe someone could fit THAT into a sitcom concept some time.

40

Well, any Catholic at all – or seriously religious person, conflicted or not – is a very rare animal on TV. Mormons never seem to appear, nor do Orthodox Jews, other than for a dash of ethnic color. Evangelical Christians are seen as illiterate religious maniacs or televangelists (even “E.R.,” usually comparatively respectful of religion, pulled that one). Muslims might as well be Mormons; they’re invisible.

TV does not have a good track record with the Big Issues generally, though there doesn’t seem to be any inherent reason why it couldn’t do better. But practically, just as TV producers in former decades were pushed to appeal to as many people as possible, they are now pushed to target the “desirable” demos as narrowly as possible. Neither approach really lends itself to a serious treatment of important subjects.

I do recall network TV’s last attempt to address the issues of Catholicism: “Nothing Sacred.” All things considered, I’d just as soon be overlooked.