When do you call it quits with a child re academic performance?

In My Humble Opinion
21

I say stay on her ass. I say that only because she is capable of the work and I know she had to be pulling consistently good grades at some point to qualify for the TAG program.

My kid does the same thing with the strong start and the weak finish. I chalk it up to burnout and try to look for ways to keep things interesting and remotivate him. When that doesn’t work, he loses privileges. We sit down together a couple of times a week and make sure he is staying organized and discussing what’s needed for school projects. Maybe you can get through to your ex with a little drama of your own.

I also point out that a good education equals choices. With A’s, you make your own choices for college and a job. With D’s, your decisions are made for you. Of course, it helps that my husband comes home dirty and aggravated from his job and asks my kdi would he also like to work 60 hour weeks and come home in the same state. It’s our version of “Scared Straight”.

I know it’s exhausting, but please don’t give up. Good luck!

22

I would disagree with this. I had a lot of the same problems as astro’s daughter when I was in high school. I ended up not graduating.

I got my GED in 1989 (the same year I was to have graduated from HS), and went on to community college and finished a course in medical records with emphasis on coding and reimbursement. I’ve never had to work a 60-hour week, I’ve never had to sweat for a living, and have generally made a success of my life since then (I generally make $15-20 an hour, and have always had excellent benefits.).

Not everyone is cut out for the four-years-of-high-school-four-years-of-college thing. I was so burned out in high school (which contributed to my lack of motivation) that I couldn’t take four years of college. Do I want to finish my degree? You bet I do, but it’s not because it’s expected of me. I want to finish it because I want to do it.

I think astro’s daughter should meet with her guidance counselor or a career counselor and have an honest talk about her future. Maybe there is an alternative that would work for her that she would be interested in pursuing.

Robin

23

Well, most of my brilliant advice has already been mentioned. Darn.
My teen isn’t going through this–yet–but I tend to agree with the back-off-a-bit crowd. It sounds like this has turned into a power struggle, at least on some level, and that’s just bad news all around.
The trick is backing off without coming off like you’re washing your hands of it all. Let her know that you care very much, you’re willing to help her (with a tutor or whatever), but that you realize (after discussing it with 8000 of your best friends…) that this really IS her life, after all, and she is the one who will have to decide how she’s going to do in school. Emphasize to her that high school isn’t everything, because obviously she might be able to continue her education even if she flunked out totally. BUT–and this is a HUGE BUT–putting in a LITTLE effort now will make things easier, should she decide she does want to go straight to college, etc. (I had so many students who gave me the old “I’m gonna quit next year anyway” routine; I always came back with, “Well, if you change your mind–just in case–it will really be cool if you didn’t have to repeat your sophomore year, wouldn’t it? Might be worth at least trying to pass, maybe?” It usually worked for me.)
I would definitely set her up an appt with her guidance office too. Nothing motivates a high schooler like realizing she might not graduate with her buddies if she doesn’t get back on track.
Good luck, astro, and let us know how it goes, okay?
~karol

24

First thing that came to my mind when seeing your daughter is 15 - Driver’s License. If she’s like my kid and her friends, the allure of the license can be a great motivator. The standing rule in our house is “School is your #1 job.” So as long as the Perfect Child[sup]TM[/sup] does her assignments to the best of her ability, she has her own car keys and the freedom to use them. (Rule #2 is that she pays her own gas and insurance, but that’s another issue.) Anyway, we’ve not had a battle over academics so far - the kid works hard and does well. But if she ever started slacking off her schoolwork, the privileges and freedoms she’s earned will be abruptly curtailed.

So, my opinion: Quit riding your daughter, but have a serious talk about responsibilities and consequences. Let her know what your expectations are and what she earns if she meets them, as well as what she’ll lose if she doesn’t. Try to get her to think beyond the next few days or months. Try to get her to picture herself in 5 or 10 years. With luck, if you plant the seed of thought, it’ll work its way into her brain.

One of the hardest parental moments is watching your kid fail at something, knowing you could have helped avoid the failure. But for some, that failure is the jolt that helps them focus.

Good luck to you.

25

With respect, backing off may be what some people wanted as a child, or what they were forced do as an adult, but for many children homework is so grossly unsupervised that it creates a terrible problem for teachers. (There are several teachers in my family.) Parents, try to hold up your end of the load. Nobody’s asking for miracles. Spend money on a tutor, send them to camp, give them incentives for well-done homework: do something!

26

My brother never wrote a paper his entire forced academic career (K-12) and I’m not exactly sure how he graduated high school, except that at the end my mother was doing the work for him just to get him out of school (she was really tired of the school system. Neither my brother or I had a very good time of it and it was hell on Mom.) He and I ended up at the same college a couple of years later and I actually had to teach him how to write a paper then. Now he’s graduated from Northern Illinois in Accounting and is VERY good at it. It may be that she’s just not interested. Maybe you can find her some alternative schooling that’d be more interesting. Maybe she needs to just get through now and will want to learn later at JC and can move on from there. Forcing and yelling aren’t going to make a difference though. It never did and still doesn’t with me, especially once I’d decided that I’d rather take the concequences than do the work.

BTW my brother was held back in 7th grade at the request of my mother. To this day he says that it was the best thing she ever did for him.

27

My brother never wrote a paper his entire forced academic career (K-12) and I’m not exactly sure how he graduated high school, except that at the end my mother was doing the work for him just to get him out of school (she was really tired of the school system. Neither my brother or I had a very good time of it and it was hell on Mom.) He and I ended up at the same college a couple of years later and I actually had to teach him how to write a paper then. Now he’s graduated from Northern Illinois in Accounting and is VERY good at it. It may be that she’s just not interested. Maybe you can find her some alternative schooling that’d be more interesting. Maybe she needs to just get through now and will want to learn later at JC and can move on from there. Forcing and yelling aren’t going to make a difference though. It never did and still doesn’t with me, especially once I’d decided that I’d rather take the concequences than do the work.

BTW my brother was held back in 7th grade at the request of my mother. To this day he says that it was the best thing she ever did for him.

28

I considered dropping out when I was 15. One of my major issues was boredom. I switched high schools after my sophomore year to a small alternative school. I really liked the structure they had there. Each class had a maximum of 20 students. We had 1 class for 3 weeks, 8 hours a day. The only problem was you only earned 13 credits per year, 15 with summer school, but (back then) they required 6 credits less than my previous HS, so I still graduated early. Maybe you should ask her if she’d like to switch schools. My mother also helped convince me to stay in school by telling me that my father was offering a free ride through college if I got my HS diploma. Little did I know that the “offer” for a free ride was part of their agreement when they divorced so he wouldn’t have to pay child support while he got his Masters.

29

I recognize your daughter. I see myself in her.

High school, for a bright kid, is the most increadably stupid thing on earth. The only thing I really learned in high school was how to throw pottery- a good skill but not exactly worth four years of my life. Even the good teachers are so busy keeping the kids from throwing stuff at each other to teach well. Even the honors classes were unchallenging. Plus, they treat you like criminals. I remember the day it dawned on me that I was in the middle of reading Crime and Punishment, contemplating human existance, and yet I still had to raise my hand to go potty. That was the day I started reading Russian literature in class instead of paying attention. The teachers couldn’t reallytstop me, because they knew I had called their bluff. High school students get almost no say on their education, and are generally treated somewhere between a small child and a criminal by the law, general public, and school administrators.

For a smart kid, high school is completely absurd.

And smart kids don’t like to spend their time doing the absurd. They’d rather fail than put up with a lot of BS. They’d rather not to anything at all than play pretend-academics and fake like the dress code are even vaguely relevent.

I only stayed in school because that is where my friends were. But staying in school is not automatically the answer. There is a pretty strong movement that is dedicated to looking at alternatives to high school. I know they publish a magazine in Sacramento called “Drop Out”, which talks about how to find alternatives to high school and how to succeed at them. Most school districts offer independent study programs and the like which are geared espcially towards smart kids like your daughter.

I know a guy that got his GED at a young age, and spent the time that he would have spent being bored in high school getting a parametics license, and driving around saving people. He also traveled, learned how to fix cars, worked as a translator, learned a lot about computers and generally learned a lot of odd but useful stuff. I met him in freshman year of college and I was absolutely shocked that he was the same age as me. He’d done so much more and lived so much more life than I had.

There are soooo many more enriching and useful things to do than high school. Join a regional theater troop. Read the classics. Make movies. Help other people. Go to community college and take some real classes taught by teachers that treat you like a full-on human and don’t have to spend all their time on dicipline.

Of course, dropping out (by getting a GED or doing independent studies) doesn’t work for everyone. Plenty of kids drop out and work at McDonalds for the rest of their lives. But for a smart kid that has the ability to motivate herself and has a lot of dreams, dropping out can be the best thing possible. For some people, it is the only way for them to realize their potential. Why should an intellegent person waste years of their lives just because that is “whats done”? It’s a big step, and a scary one, and one that would require lots of planning and lots of motivation, but it might just be the right one.

30

I think there is some middle ground between backing off completely and continuing as you are. I think the thing to do–if you can–is to stay involved on a practical level, but stop being involved on an emotional level. It’s the emotional level that is wearing you out and that is turning this into a power struggle.

Sit down and decide what you think an acceptable level of perfprmance is. Then, come up with an incentive you are willing to give if that perfprmance level is reached, and a ppunnishment you can stand to administer if that performance level is not reached.

The performance level you decide on needs to be objective and reasonable. Do not say "If your grades don’t come up. . . ", say “You need to have all Bs. For every A, you can have a C.”

Picking the right punishment is the hardest thing: it has to be something that is severe enough to matter, but not so draconian that you won’t be able to carry thrugh with it: cutting off all contact with friends and removing the TV and the internet and making her wear corduroy toughskins to school every day for the next 9 weeks is ridiculous and counterproductive. Six weeks into it she’ll hate you and you will hate you and you will cave. You might present a list of privledges: Phone, Internet, Going out Friday, Going out Saturday, Friends over after school, TV on Weekdays, TV on Weekends, and then say that for every grade that is below a B, she loses one of those things until the next grading period. Hell, let her chose which thing, when the time comes.

Another important thing is not to land on a punnishment that requires more work on your part than you re willing to do: don’t say that if her grades come down you are going to call her teachers for conference every week unless you are the sort of person who is good at making seven calls a week without fail. Don’t suspend all driving privledges and then make exceptions for running your errands.
As far as rewards go, you have a better idea what she wants in life than any of us: come up with something suitably juicy, but not ridiculous, and I think that things are better than money: money is crass. Better to pay for her to get a manicure, or give tickets to a concert or something like that.

Once you have set up this system–and you will have to get your X on board, though all she will have to do is monitor any privledge losses that come about–and you may want to stick to privledge losses that you can do all the monitoring over–explain it to your daughter and step back. Don’t harp on it, don’t worry about it. Once a week, ask her if there is anything going on with her schoolwork that you could help her with. Then, when report cards come, see what’s what. If her grades are low, don’t take it personally. This is the hardest part. Don’t be angry. Don’t be disappointed. Have a matter of fact “That really sucks for you. Which privledges are you going to lose?” attitude. Do be mildly encouraging: “Ah, well, nine weeks isn’t so long. I’m sure you can pull up English and Chem for next time.” Do not accept excuses, no matter how valid: tell her that if she was having problems, the time to bring them up was before the end of the grading period. Again, don’t be emotional about any of this.

31

I was somewhat like that as well, and I have to say that I owe my passing to the fact that my dad never pressured me to do anything. I don’t know if that would work for backing off, but I do know that when my mom tried to get involved it did not help my grades any and only made me hate her. If she had done that into my teenage years I would have stopped trying at all. They also said that good grades in highschool matter. In the end they were wrong because right now I have a semester in college and I have full tuition and books paid with a 3.5 GPA in college before the rest of my class graduated with what was supposed to be a 2.5 GPA. Picking the right classes matters so much more.

I’d say see if you can get her in any college classes(where she actually goes to the college even if it is just with other highschool students) that she would be interested in if her highschool has them. Going to a computer networking class with a teacher who treated us like college students did wonders for my motivation.

32

You know…that sounds exactly like this one kid I was friends with in high school…and, um, that didn’t turn out too well. Then again, he had some other problems that he needed to work through.

Having witnessed that situation, my advice to you is to talk (again, if that’s the case) to your ex about this. A serious, long talk. If that doesn’t work, you might want to consider taking her out of G&T classes and putting her in either honors or regular classes. I was in a similar program in high school, and the pressure/stress of those classes was enough to keep me from wanting to even think about school when I got home, let alone do my homework. Honors classes might be relieve her stress, allowing her to actually think about doing her homework without wanting to pull her hair out in frustration. If she’s a perfectionist, this solution might be the best thing for her.

But as to when you should “give up?” Never. But sometimes you’ve gotta just cringe and wait for them to come to their sense ;). Best of luck.

33

There was some good advice here. My advice is a composite of some of the things already mentioned. First:

  1. Rule out drug use/ depression/ ADHD/ etc.

  2. Back off and allow her to be responsible for the consequence.

Then:

  1. Make certain that there are some consequences that she won’t want to be responsible for. For example, you say she is in the gifted and talented program – does she want to remain there? If she does, then make that a consequence – “Sorry, Princess. The TAG program is for kids who are willing to put in actual effort at studying. IMO, you are taking up a space that should go to a more deserving student. You can stay in the program so long as your grades remain at a B average. Dip below that and you’re back among the plebians, kiddo.” Another good consequence is driving privileges. I’m planning on using this one with my own kid. Most insurance companies have a “good student” insurance rate. Use that. “Sorry, Kitten, our insurance company requires a B average or better to qualify for the best rates. I won’t pay double for your insurance just because you can’t be bothered to do your homework. You’ll pay the difference? No, I’m afraid not – there are reasons why the insurance companies give that discount. Statistically, poor students are a poor car insurance risk. I don’t want to take that risk any more that the insurance company does. Show me (and them) a B average and we’ll discuss it again. Don’t and you’ll be getting your license when you’re 18.”

Good luck – it’s damn hard to raise the little monsters isn’t it?

Jess (mother of a 15 year girl and a boy who turns 16 today)

34

It seems your daughter has tuned you out. You need to try to get back into her life. Stop trying to get her to do her schoolwork and work on your relationship with her. The wisdom of what you are saying is so obvious that she might see it for herself if you have a better relationship with her. The alternatives seem to be that she slacks her way through high school resenting you for being a prison guard or she slacks her way through high school with a good relationship with you. Then when she does wake up and smell the coffee she will feel confident enough in your relationship to seek your counsel.

35

I was going to remark on my experiences in high school, but even sven nailed it. Being gifted in a modern public school system is absolute limbo. Everything is pitched to the lowest common denominator, and the homework is so often a poor substitute for adequate coverage of the material.

I was miserable from the seventh grade on, and while I seriously discussed with my parents dropping out for a GED, the only thing that kept me in school was the fear that I’d end up flipping burgers for the rest of my life. But there are only two things I learned in all six years at middle school and high school: how low the human race can sink, and grammar. Your daughter will not learn grammar – they don’t teach it anymore.

There are no easy answers. No matter what you do, she can (and probably will) evade you. But good luck anyway. For the record, I spent a few years in community college after I graduated high school, and am now in a good university working on two bachelor’s degrees.

36

I was going to remark on my experiences in high school, but even sven nailed it. Being gifted in a modern public school system is absolute limbo. Everything is pitched to the lowest common denominator, and the homework is so often a poor substitute for adequate coverage of the material.

I was miserable from the seventh grade on, and while I seriously discussed with my parents dropping out for a GED, the only thing that kept me in school was the fear that I’d end up flipping burgers for the rest of my life. But there are only two things I learned in all six years at middle school and high school: how low the human race can sink, and grammar. Your daughter will not learn grammar – they don’t teach it anymore.

There are no easy answers. No matter what you do, she can (and probably will) evade you. But good luck anyway. For the record, I spent a few years in community college after I graduated high school, and am now in a good university working on two bachelor’s degrees.

37

I agree very much with the “trying not to make it a you vs. her” thing.

Then again, I am speaking from the very recent perspective of someone in something close to her situation (except I was 17). I did, however, find myself caring a lot more about the fights my parents and I had than the grades I was messing up.

Which, by the way, resulted in me failing the only two classes I have failed in my entire life, me switching programs and having (and graduating with) honours every semester since.

While I will probably be the only one to argue this, I firmly believe that a 15 year old is old enough to make decisions and take responsibility. I know there’s a popular attitude here that teenagers have the cognitive skills of toddlers, but I disagree.

I would argue that she knows exactly what she’s doing. And she knows why, as well.

38

This, folks, is sheer brilliance! What 15 year old ISN’T desperately waiting for that magic moment when he/she turns 16 and can finally drive? Although to us adults, the long-term difference between getting a license at 16 versus 18 is trivial, while the difference between getting good grades and failing classes is enomous, to the typical teenager it’s not getting the car as soon as possible which will be the true disaster. This is a consequence astro’s daughter would probably respect.

Oh, and Jess, about that 16 year old boy - you have my deepest sympathies. Maybe Qadgop could get you a year’s supply of Valium from a drug rep. :wink:

39

Many heartfelt thanks to everyone for the thoughtful replies and suggestions. I will digest them over the next few days before I pick up the kids on Friday and decide what direction to take.

In all honesty I am pretty aggressive about wanting my kids to do well and succeed, but there may be a point where that is counter productive and she just tunes it out. In addition it doesn’t do her equibrilium any good to be shuttling from house to house every few weeks, but there’s nothing I can do about that at this point. You can’t micro manage someone into success. Either she picks up the baton or she doesn’t. It’s very hard to let a child fail especially when you see her repeating some of your mistakes as a student. Backing off may be the best solution, but you pray the their bungee cord will snap back before they hit the ground.

Thanks again.

40

If she really does want to go to college, you can sit down with her and make a ‘deal.’ Tell her that you won’t help her pay for college, so that the only way she is going to get out of that town and move on with her life is if she gets scholarships, and the only way she is going to get scholarships is to raise her academic performance and do her homework. If she tries after that and doesn’t get any scholarships anyway, you have the choice to help her after that because she tried. Also add the clause that if she does not pick up her academic performance and does not go to college, then she is out of the house as soon as she graduates. Give her a list of all the expenses that she’ll have to deal with if she chooses this route and ask her if she really thinks she can support herself while working in fast food or something similar when life costs so much.

Or…do the opposite of rewarding a child with money for good grades.
Make her pay you 60 bucks for every F, 50 bucks for every D and 40 bucks for every C. :slight_smile: