When do you call it quits with a child re academic performance?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I have an 11 year old son and 15 year old daughter. My daughter is quite intelligent and is in the TAG (talented and gifted) program (probably not much longer though) . She just finished almost failing 10th grade with D’s in every subject except a C in Art and an E in Chemistry. She is going onto to 11th grade only by the grace of God. This is a repeat (though worse) of the performance last year which was mostly comprised of D and C grades. The typical pattern is that she starts the year with A’s and B’s and finishes with D’s and E’s. The main problem as I see it is that”

1: That I have her 30% of the time and my X has her 70% of the time.

2: She really doesn’t seem to really care about doing well in a real world sense

I don’t have to call Sherlock Holmes in on the case as to the reason why she is failing academically. When she is with my ex-wife she completely blows off her homework. My ex works a retail job that gets her home (tired) at 7:30 PM in the evening 4-5 days a week and she is unmotivated to check her daughter’s work. When she is with her mother my daughter basically screws around on the net after she gets home at 3:30 on the bus, eats dinner after her mother gets home then takes a nap after dinner, wakes up around 9-10 PM (her mother is asleep at this point) and stays up till 2AM-3AM on the net, until she collapses and goes to school exhausted the next day. Wake up and repeat.

Because my hours are more flexible I can make her do their homework when she is with me, but I catch her lying to me almost continuously about what schoolwork she has to complete and accomplish, and a check of her book bag almost always roots out numerous missed homework notices. I can’t really blame my ex for this behavior as a 15 year old is supposed to know enough to complete their homework and she lies to her mother just like she lies to me.

I have explained to the point of exhaustion (mine and hers) interspersed with a fair amount of jumping up and down when report cards come out, why it is important she does well in high school as a preparation to apply to college. She seems to desperately want to get out of the local area and get into the big, wide world and go to college, but she refuses to do her school work. Although she is a major league drama queen, my daughter is not a nasty or disobedient child in any overt sense and seems hold the incompatible desire(s) to be academically accomplished, popular and well liked (she’s 5’11" and a bit of a techno music geek) and not wanting to do any significant work towards this goal re homework.

This was a very long setup to the problem I’m having. I love her unconditionally and she is my little princess but dammit **I. am. tired ** of being lied to and manipulated like a hand puppet so that she can escape doing her schoolwork. My ex is congenitally clueless and will stay clueless until the day she dies. My daughter is very intelligent and tests in the top 1% of most ability indexes but has inherited my distractability, her mother’s procrastination and my mother’s drama queen tendencies, which does not necessarily make for an easy life or a good student. I have busted my ass to try to give her the tools to succeed and I am so disgusted at this point I’m on the verge of writing her off as a college prospect. I told her after this last year ending report card, that, in all seriousness, a permanent career in the fast food service industry is where she is headed and that I am really just completely burned emotionally re being able to care at this point. The truth is that I do care very much about her success and I want the best for her, but I am really beside myself as to how to get from point A to point B.

Anyone have kids in this situation? What was the solution?

2

Just curious here … but are you sure she’s not on drugs?

Going from A’s to D’s can be a sign sometimes.

3

What’s an E?!

4

How do you expect a kid to excell when her school’s grading system is from outer space (or Maryland. Same thing.:p)

Let me second the request: What the hell is an E?!:confused:

5

Same as an “F”.

6

I was in the same position as your daughter when I was a teenager.

It started in 10th grade (age 15). I was intelligent but completely unmotivated. I had a vague notion that I ought to worry about the future but figured I had plenty of highschool time left to worry about good grades and college. Plus, I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do with my life. Absolutely no idea. Scared the heck out of me and left me without a reason to care about whether or not I went to college.

My mother was tough on me. She would drive me to school and then hang around, making sure I didn’t sneak out of the building. She would bawl me out about homework. We argued a lot. I was grounded a lot. I didn’t think it was her business what I chose to do with my schoolin’. (Of course I see things entirely differently now.)

Once I got out of the habit of attending regularly and completing the work regularly, it was so bloody difficult to get back into it. It wasn’t until I was 19 that I realized I had pissed away a good chunk of time and had nothing to show for it. Plus, my friends had all graduated highschool and were attending college. They were growing up, getting things done, and there I was left behind in the dust. That’s what motivated me to at least finish highschool.

It took me to the age of 25 to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, though. Now I’m attending college–at 26. And I am doing very well because I have a clear goal in mind.

Maybe it’s similar for your daughter. Maybe she just doesn’t know what she wants out of life yet.

7

No drugs. In fact she very anti-drug and disparages the “e-tards” prevalent at some of the at the tech music sites she frequents. As the son of an alcoholic I’m also pretty sensitive to impared ability. She’s just lazy/unmotivated and distractable.

8

I’m not a parent, but I am a student who went from good to bad performance after my parents got divorced.

My study habits, which were never very good, became awful because I spent so much time adjusting to living in two places. (Drugs were not part of the problem, but I agree with WV_Woman, they could be. Kids taking drugs can be extremely clever about hiding it from their parents.)

I did not take the SAT, for reasons that aren’t relevant to your situation. I went to a junior college for a semester, and on the strength of grades there, transfered to a good university. She probably could do the same.

Besides getting a therapist (something I don’t recommend, partly because it might take a long time to produce results) something useful might be to get her a tutor, especially one who appears at your ex-wife’s place. I wish I had had one to set my thinking straight about rather obvious things about study habits. A second opinion about learning from someone inspiring often has dramatic results, I’m told.

In the same vein, someone just sent me the best book for students I have ever read about studying called “Essential Study Skills for Science Students” by Daniel D. Chiras.

9

Should clarify - “e-tards” = ecstasy / MDMA users

10

I’ve been a kid in this situation, minus the divorced parents, and somehow I made it to grad school. My advice – which you may find hard to hear and harder to put into practice – is to back off. Completely. That means no checking her book bag, no lectures, no jumping up and down and screaming when the report cards come out. Of course you’re burned out emotionally – you’re putting all your energy into something you have no control over.

You are right to think she is old enough to take responsibility for doing her homework. If she isn’t doing it, it is her problem and not yours; by making it your problem, you’ve turned this into a power struggle that has nothing to do with academics. It sounds like she would have the desire to do well in school if she were left to her own devices, but in her mind, studying means letting you win, and no teenager ever wants to relinquish control to her parents. But if you leave her alone and let her sink or swim, she’ll probably swim.

It may help to remember that high school is not the only route to academic and professional success – there are always GEDs, community colleges, and jobs that don’t require a traditional four-year degree. Even if she continues to screw up after she’s left to her own devices, she will have other opportunities to make good.

It’s good to care about your children, but sometimes you can care too much. Good luck.

11

Well, I am not a parent, but I’ll throw out some thoughts anyway - feel free to throw them directly into the trash can if you like.

  1. WV_Woman’s point about possible drug use is a good one, and should be checked out.

  2. Depression can manifest itself in “odd” ways in teenagers - looking like anger/defiance rather than sadness. An evaluation by a good child psychologist might be something to consider.

  3. You said that your daughter doesn’t seem to care about doing well in a “real world” sense. Why should she? She’s never been in the real world. Many teenagers simply don’t make the “emotional” connection between their actions now, and the effects those actions will have on their later lives - it doesn’t seem real to them. It’s that old “I’m invulnerable” attitude, in a slightly different guise. You seem to be putting a lot of effort into getting her to do her homework, etc. - I wonder if this hasn’t turned into a power struggle between the two of you, one which she feels she has to win in order to gain her independence from you, even at the expense of “ruining” her future (which she doesn’t REALLY believe can happen, since she knows on a gut level that she’s invulnerable - bad things only happen to someone ELSE).

So, if she’s not on drugs and not depressed, my suggestion would be for you to back off. Tell your daughter that, now that she’s growing up so quickly, SHE is now old enough and mature enough to be the one responsible for her homework, not you. Remind her, briefly, of the potential consequences of not doing well in school. Then stay out of the way. If she doesn’t do the work, LET HER FAIL. The only way she will learn to judge the likely consequences of her choices is if you stop shielding her from them. She needs to learn now that there are real consequences to not doing the work (such as being held back a grade), and she’s more likely to learn that lesson if she can’t hold others responsible for her actions.

As for “ruining her future” - at her age, that’s hard to do. Granted, she’s not likely to get into Harvard if she fails a bunch of classes. But there’s always community college; after doing well in a community college for a year or so, she could transfer into a 4-year institution later. Hell, even if she were to drop out entirely, she could get a GED later, then return to school. Perhaps part of the reason for her “I don’t care” attitude is that she’s not sure she WANTS to go to college. She may also be frightened of the thought of “growing up”, and utterly clueless about what she wants to do with her life. Your pushing her to excel academically may not be helping matters.

Bottom line - you can lead a child to knowledge, but you cannot make her learn. She has to develop the internal motivation to learn, and that’s not something you can instill - you can only encourage her to do her best, and reassure her that you’ll continue to love her no matter what she may eventually choose to do with her life.

I hope things work out well for you and your daughter, astro.

12

I’d agree about the depression comments, but it might be easier to fix her study habits than cure the depression.

Changing tactics is in order (especially because you seem to feel it is) but the “back off” comments I do not in the largest sense agree with, unless you’ve tried everything else plausible. That’s one of the virtues of a tutor: she can hear about homework from somebody besides you. Another type of solution: When my father had severe discipline problems, his parents sent him to a strict boarding school.

The “failing will teach her the error of her ways” approach is stern medicine, sometimes the only medicine. But there are plenty of people who never learn from some of their mistakes…I could give you a couple personal examples…grin.

I wanted to add that someone, particularly someone new to drugs, doesn’t have to be a problem user or addict to have it affect academic performance. Being stoned on grass twice a month might do it.

13

artemis summarized my thoughts pretty well. We’ve similar struggles with our 13 year old. Between her medical condition and her academics, sometimes we just bag the academics fretting and try to be grateful that right now, she’s healthy.

14

Another thing I noticed, she’s online 8-10 hours a day. Is there a possibility that this heavy online usage in and of itself may be a problem that might be explored with professional assistance?

(If you have already explored this, my apologies for bringing it up. It’s just that those long hours on the net kind of jumped out at me.)

15

You mentioned “inherited distractability” - have you had her evaluated for attention-deficit disorder? It may not be possible for her to concentrate on her own, without the structure you provide.

Or it could be teenage attitude.

16

I’m kind of in your daughter’s situation. I had always been an A student and then this past year things started to go down. For some reason the motivation I had always had was gone. Nothing anyone said helped at all. IMHO, I think you’ll just have to wait it out and hope for the best. I don’t think your ex asking about homework would really help either, because it didn’t with me, so don’t blame her. I don’t know what type of person she is, but I know that when people repeatedly tell me things I’m less likely to do them. Let her continue what she’s doing and something may just click in her head, and she’ll realize that she is too intelligent to waste it like that. That’s how I felt at the end of this year, so I promised myself I’d do better next year. Eventually though she will appreciate how much you care about her future.

Honestly, I don’t know. I think it could’ve been that I had worked really hard all my other years in school and suddenly got tired of it. I know that next year I’ll try harder, and maybe your daughter will too. IMHO, nothing you say will help because you can’t make someone want to do something, at least that’s how it is with me. I hope that everything works out for your daughter a

17

Oops disregard that last paragraph I edited what I was going to say and forgot to erase it. :::Must use preview button:::

18

Ohh! A tutor!

Good idea! Adds structure (which she needs) and pulls you out of the picture. Hire some one about her age who is just as bright as she is. Someone she can get along with and respects. And then back off. Make some decent rewards and concequences for grades, give her everything she needs to pull it together, and let her fly.

Oh, and get your ex in on it…if she’s not willing/able to support her end of the parenting, maybe your daughter should stay with you more often.

19

I’m kind of going through the same thing with my 12-year-old son. He had a hellish year in the fifth grade, when I was away for half the year looking for work. Last year, he was homeschooled, and while he did well with math and history, teaching him to write an essay and work on his spelling would have made a saint cry. He did it, though, but it made me appreciate teachers more.

This year, he’ll go back to school, and while we’ll check on his work, we’re going to try to back off. We believe that he’s creative and loves to work with his hands, but not necessarily enough of a scholar for college. (We’re not writing him off, however. Just waiting and seeing.)

In addition, a few years back, a co-worker was complaining to me that her 15-year-old son was in danger of failing school. His grades were in the D range and she was worried he may have to repeat the grade.

“Does he know that?” I said.

“What do you mean of course he knows that,” she said.

“But does he really know that? Have you sat down and said, 'These are your grades, if you get this and this and this, you’re going to flunk and that means you’ll have to repeat the grade.”

She stopped to think, then said, “I don’t think so.”

See, she didn’t understand that some 15-year-old boys are completely clueless about things unless it’s shoved into their face (don’t ask me why I know this :wink: )

She told me later that her son was stunned at the possibility that he might have to repeat a grade. It had never crossed his mind that it could happen.

I don’t know how much help he received after that. His grades were still bad, but he had pulled them up enough to avoid beind held back.

Granted, that’s just one story, but I believe that, unless you’re willing to carry her water – an impossibility since you share custody of her – you’ll have to let her know that you’ll give her time and space to do her work, but that she’ll have to bear most of the load. If you like, give her ideas on how to manage her workload, like to-do lists or devoting space in a notebook to keep track of her assignments. After that, she’s on her own, knowing that, if she flunks out, it’ll be off to the chicken-processing plant for her, because that may be all a high school dropout can get nowadays.

I wish I could be more reassuring, but there comes a point where a parent can help the kids only so much, and they have to make it the rest of the way on their own. The possibility of success includes the possibility of failure, but short of making her life dependent on yours, I don’t know any other solution.

20

This is my personal opinion. Luckily, this is also the board for it.

Parental motivation to do work and parental checking of work is a horrendously bad idea. I can feel some gasoline bbqs being warmed up, but still I will go on.

I’ve got 2 reasons for that statement, both of which mesh well with my mindset, and these are them:

  1. You have doubtless already been told this, but there will come a time when you will not be ready/willing/able/present to supply this motivation to your daughter. At such time, a child that has built up their own model for motivation and success will continue to use it. However, a child that has thrived on praise/warnings/bribes/Lord-knows-what-else will fail. I state that as a generality, and I believe it as such.

  2. Whether some people (no implication about the OP) choose to believe it or not, there is a limit to the power they can bring to bear against their children, and the effectiveness of said power. There’s only so far you can “up the ante” (scolding, yelling, grounding, grounding long term, outright banning of certain activities, ??) without becoming a monster. Humans are adaptive creatures, each level of force you have access to can only be effective for a certain amount of time. Again, a generality. Nothing personal to you, astro.
    Having mumbled all that, I hold with those that say “back off”. It is time for your child to sink or swim on her own. If she floats, she’ll be fine for a good, long while. If she sinks, I think it is your best interests to resist the urge to help her float as long as you possibly can - hopefully until she realizes the consequences of her actions.