When does "I'll claw your eyes out" mean "No"?

[Dangerosa]

Brave, no not really. It was something that happened to me a long time ago. As Stoid said about her experience - it was icky. But I don’t carry any guilt and any emotional trauma is long gone. And that which does not kill you makes you stronger - this is part of who I am, and I like myself. Without this experience, I would be someone different.

I should continue the story. I said “no” I said “stop” I said “you are hurting me” I even said “what you are doing is rape.” (Guys, this is a clue…if she accuses you of rape while it is happening, she probably will consider it rape tomorrow).

Two days later he called and asked me out again. When I said “No! You raped me! I don’t ever want to see you again,” he was shocked. Heard his side of the story from a mutual friend. He agreed I said “no” and “stop” but thought I was just “protecting my reputation” and had been a willing participant in the whole thing. It wasn’t any different from other sex he’d had, and no one else had ever accused him of rape. Dense bastard.

No I never got back at him. Never really cared to have anything more to do with him. Lost track of him quickly, the mutual friend stopped dealing with him when he learned how I (and apparently others) had been treated and the bastard was quickly out of the social circle of anyone I knew (if he remained, I didn’t). Did make an effort to let other women know he wasn’t exactly a charming date. Heard much later he had moved out of state.

[Melpomene]

*Originally posted by djbdjb *
**seriously, doesn’t anyone know of a single date rape story where the attacked fought back? **

coughchokesplutter

WHAAA?!?

Most date rapes I know include the girl fighting back. Screaming, kicking, struggling against someone holding you down is fighting back. I don’t know what you define as “fought back”…

As for the women who didn’t fight back…being drunk or drugged limits how much fighting back you can do.

Rape situations aren’t easy to fight in. When you are being held down, with or without the threat of a weapon, and you are scared to death…very often, the victim becomes a deer in headlights and just freezes up, doesn’t move. Some women just close their eyes and pray or pretend they are somewhere else.

I’m pretty certain that in the majority of rapes, date or not, the woman fought back in whatever way she knew how. At least, I base this on my having spoken to many women, friends, acquaintances and strangers alike, as well as my own experience.

Just my 2 Cents

[SuaSponte]

*Originally posted by magdalene *
Sua, I’m sure the fellow Georgetown student who raped me freshman year was drunk when it occurred. I, however, was drunk to the point of being unconscious - woke up halfway through. Did I also rape him? I don’t think so. Did I fight back? No - I was too incapacitated. But I did vomit all over him as soon as it was done.

Well, magdalene, you definitely pointed out the flaw in my reasoning, and I’m sorry that this happened to you. And please, just remember I was asking a question about something I viewed as a logical inconsistency, not acting as an apologist for rapists.

Sua

[magdalene]

SuaSponte,

No worries!

I know that your heart and head are definitely in the right place, and you were asking a legitimate question - “Why are some people saying that it is automatically rape if the girl is drunk, but not if the guy is drunk too?”

There is a difference between a drunken hook-up: possibly regrettable sex that the parties would not have had if sober (and the raison d’etre for the existence of that party paradise formerly known as The Pub) and rape.

[Jodi]

If I am brave enough, I may try to justify why I think it would be beneficial (for example, why I might council my daughters to do this, and why I would be glad if my sons lived in an environment where the daughters where socialized this way) to resist strongly in cases of acquaintance rape, but my arguments WILL NOT apply to cases of stranger rape. Of course, resistance there may also be beneficial, but the implied thread of deadly violence is so much greater than from an acquantance (dating acquaintance) that I wouldn’t want to make the same argument as in acquaintance rape.

So you would imply that a woman has an obligation to resist if she can safely do so? I would not argue with this. But I dislike the implication that you assume that women are not resisting date rape, but are still then crying “rape.”

A “date rape” is a rape that occurs in the context where the assailant and the victim know each other, at least in passing. IMO, it should more properly be called “acquaintance rape,” to be contrasted to “rape by a stranger.”

There is nothing in the term “date rape” or “acquaintance rape” that indicates that by necessity (a) the sex was not non-consensual (ie, a true rape); (b) the woman did not resist; or © violence was not used or at least implied.

I am also troubled by your use of the term “deadly force,” as if a woman is not justified in submitting if all that is threatened is non-deadly force – as if she has an obligation to resist if the likely result is that she’ll “only” have the crap kicked out of her.

IMO, you should encourage your daughters to be responsible for their own safety by staying alert, sticking to safe locations and situations, and remaining reasonably sober. You should also encourage them to value their health above their virtue if, God forbid, they have to choose to between the two. But, also IMO, you should not be expecting them to react differently to the crime of rape based on whether the rapist is an acquaintence or a stranger. Far more important than that is the question of whether they are likely to be hurt – regardless of who the attacker is or where the attack took place.

[pldennison]

*Originally posted by magdalene *
There is a difference between a drunken hook-up: possibly regrettable sex that the parties would not have had if sober (and the raison d’etre for the existence of that party paradise formerly known as The Pub) and rape.

Unfortunately for the women who do suffer through these degrading, violent, painful experiences, there appear to be more women than there should be who don’t know the difference. It isn’t exactly endemic, but there have frequently been cases in which a woman (especially college women) has engaged in the first, then claimed the second. And in the kangaroo courts which often exist on college campuses, it can be a quick road to ruin for an equally regretful man.

Any woman who does such a thing devalues the true horror of a rape, IMO, and lends undue legitimacy to blaming the victim.

[The_Ryan]

*Originally posted by Jodi *
But, also IMO, you should not be expecting them to react differently to the crime of rape based on whether the rapist is an acquaintence or a stranger.

I disagree. While the possibility of serious injury exists in date rape, it is much less. After all, for the date rapist to get away with it requires that no one notice that anything happened. If a guy goes out on a date with someone, and she ends up dead or in the hospital, there are going to some very difficult questions for that guy. A stranger doesn’t have those concerns; in fact, killing the woman often makes it less likely that he’ll that get caught. Therefore, while not resisting and calling the cops immediately afterwards is a largely risk-free (because the risk of rape, of course) strategy as far as date rape is considered, in the case of stranger rape the woman should be much more focused on getting out alive.

[even_sven]

I don’t believe that the woman is ever REQUIRED to fight back. I know this sounds a bit extreme. I am not saying that women shouldn’t fight back (I’d prefer it that they fought back with extreme force), just that there is no requirement for the woman to physically resist. What other crime do we expect physical resistance for? Do we ask mugging victems why they didn’t hit the mugger? Do we ask if maybe they consented to that mugging? No. I find it insulting that we treat victems of all sorts of violence one way and yet we meet rape victems with contempt and disbelief.

That said, there are many reasons why a woman would choose not to physically fight back. Most of these are the same reasons why rapes so often go unreported to the police. After all, fighting back is pretty equivelent to reporting a rape.

First off, there is still a stigma attached to rape victems. They have to live with that part of their lives being public, and people will not say nice things about them. In some countrys, rape victems are unmarriagable, even though their loss of virginity was non-consentual. Granted, it is not that way in the US, but the stigma is still there.

Second off, men still hold more positions of power over women. A woman who dares to get a man in a position of authority will very likely face a lot of trouble in her community.

Aquatance rape is even more troublesome. How would your life be if you were the one that sent the star quarter back to jail? What about sending a member of your social group to the slammer? You might be left with no friends, and even a lot of enemies.

For these and other reasons, people sometimes choose just to let the rape blow over and get on with their lives. This may include not reporting it or fighting back. This does not, however, mean consent. Maybe I should repeat that for the dense: NOT FIGHTING BACK DOES NOT MEAN CONSENT!

I know that for some people these might not look like good reasons to not report of fight back against a rape, but they are reasons none the less. They can be very important reasons if the person involved is unable to leave town or otherwise escape the bad situation. I wish people wern’t influenced by these things, but that is the way the world works. Luckly, there is only one obligation that people have regarding rape, and that is not to rape anyone.

[The_Ryan]

*Originally posted by even sven *
**Do we ask mugging victems why they didn’t hit the mugger? Do we ask if maybe they consented to that mugging? No.
**

Really? You think so? I think that if one were to go to the police say “Hey, I gave a bunch of money to one of my friends, but it only because I was afraid of him beating me up”, you’d have a hard time getting the police to prosecute. And if you’re comparing being mugged by a stranger to being raped by a friend, that’s hardly a legitimite comparison.

[evilbeth]

*Originally posted by The Ryan *
And if you’re comparing being mugged by a stranger to being raped by a friend, that’s hardly a legitimite comparison.

First of all, not all date rapes are by “friends”. They are often by guys (I apologize for using only male attackers–I know women can rape men but I can’t think of a better “pronoun” to indicate either sex so I’m just going with the male-on-female scenario for right now) that the victim has only gone out with a couple of times. Sure she may have seen him around and spoken a few times but they are not friends. Which leads us to the following:

*Originally posted by The Ryan ***
Really? You think so? I think that if one were to go to the police say “Hey, I gave a bunch of money to one of my friends, but it only because I was afraid of him beating me up”, you’d have a hard time getting the police to prosecute. **

Consider this. On my way to work, there are some homeless men that I stop and give change to every once and a while. However, one night as I’m walking to my car, one of them mugs me and takes all my money. Now, is this man somehow less guilty of the crime of theft just because I have seen him a few times and given him some change on occasion? No–that’s absurd. So why is that some people assume that date rape is somehow less vile and punishable than being raped by a stranger?

I mean, I think women are less likely to fight back violently against someone they know and have previously been nice to. It is much easier to beat the shit out of someone you don’t know for messing with you than it is the guy you thought was really cool an hour before. In the case of the hypothetical mugging above, say I didn’t automatically resist the mugging because I thought the guy was just coming up to me to panhandle like he always does. By the time I realized that he was actually intent on mugging me, I couldn’t stop it–he had gotten my money and run. How is this different than a date rape? (I mean a rape by a person you had gone out with one or two times.)

I’ve heard people say that you can’t compare mugging to rape because while it is common for people to go out and give sex to strangers all the time (women going out to bars and bringing men home for one night stands) but people don’t just go around giving out money to strangers so the line to be crossed isn’t as clear. This is a crock. People give out money to strangers all the time. People give panhandlers change. People put money into the little red Salvation Army kettle. People donate money to buy veteren’s newsletters or poppies. However, this casual giving of money to strangers is never questioned when people get mugged. Yet, have casual sex and it will be a very big issue if you are ever raped.

[Dangerosa]

*Originally posted by The Ryan *

I disagree. While the possibility of serious injury exists in date rape, it is much less. After all, for the date rapist to get away with it requires that no one notice that anything happened. If a guy goes out on a date with someone, and she ends up dead or in the hospital, there are going to some very difficult questions for that guy. A stranger doesn’t have those concerns; in fact, killing the woman often makes it less likely that he’ll that get caught. Therefore, while not resisting and calling the cops immediately afterwards is a largely risk-free (because the risk of rape, of course) strategy as far as date rape is considered, in the case of stranger rape the woman should be much more focused on getting out alive. **

This makes sense when you are not in the situation, but when you are there you see things a little differently. You see a guy that 15 minutes ago you trusted enough to go into his apartment (and liked well enough to let him stick his toungue down your throat) that now you realize you don’t know him as well as you thought you did and now you can’t trust him to take no for an answer. Do you know him well enough to assume he won’t hurt you badly? Do you know him well enough to assume he has the common sense not to murder you because your roommate knew you went out with him? The last assumption you made - that he would stop when you asked him to - didn’t turn out so well. While statistics and psychology probably back up your view, I didn’t (and many women don’t) choose to play those statistics or use that logic when in that situation. Most women know other women who have been beaten by men they know - perhaps this is one of those guys. And the fact that he’d get caught doesn’t keep you from having to heal broken bones or internal injuries.

Making the call now and making the call when you are pinned down by a guy that outweighs you by 90 pounds (and seems to get more excited the more you struggle and protest) are two different things.

[Moirai]

*Originally posted by djbdjb *
**
Another thread started called ‘when does no mean no?’. To me, no means no. No clothes worn by a woman; no money paid for dinner, presents; no long acquaintance; no previous foreplay entitle a man to sex. But if the guy doesn’t stop when you say no, what then? It was with that question in mind that I started this thread, which is evidently has too jocular a title for this heavy subject.
**

First Doug, sorry about the snap “idiot” judgement, I hope I misunderstood the OP.

Having said that, in reading the above, my eyes are drawn to the line, “But if a guy doesn’t stop when you say no, what then?”

What then? Well, then it is rape.

And I hope I just didn’t understand your earlier comments above. You didn’t mean that those things (nudity, dinner, presents, acquaintance, good foreplay) entitle a man to sex, right?

I never got the impression from the other thread that “date rape” victims never fought back, so I just didn’t get your OP. And I also agree that having different terms for different “forms” of rape is not really a good thing, as it seems to imply that there are degrees of rape. Which I don’t think there are.

[magdalene]

WILD APPLAUSE FOR EVILBETH!!!

For The Ryan, and other guys who seem not to understand what date rape is:

Say you and I are hanging out, and I’ve made some chocolate cake. I give you a bite, you try it, you like it. You eat a little bit more. I’m feeding you cake off the fork. You really like the cake. But at some point, you’ve had enough cake. You wave the fork away, you tell me that you don’t want anymore cake, you close your mouth. But there I am with the fork, suddenly holding you down and mashing cake into your face, not taking no for an answer. After all, you LIKE the cake. You ate some already, and you really liked it. How DARE you stop wanting it or decide you’ve had enough? I’ll decide when you’ve had enough!!! What, why are you crying and running away? Don’t you like my cake? But you liked it at first!!!

Sorry if that seems too simplistic or condescending, but that’s often how date rape happens. Something that is fun and pleasurable at first becomes violent, and the victim is left doubting herself or wondering what really happened, and she and everyone else can always say “Well, you went there, or you let him into your apartment, and you kissed him, and you let him take your blouse off, and you’ve fucked other guys - why is this any different?”

It is different. And it sucks.

I agree with pldennison (I believe) that regrettable, drunken sex does not equal date rape. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.

[magdalene]

Forgot to say, re: the OP and the chocolate cake example:

When should the victim of the chocolate cake should have started fighting back? Should he/she have refused any and all cake?

Oh, and MORE WILD APPLAUSE FOR EVILBETH!

[Gaudere]

First Doug, sorry about the snap “idiot” judgement, I hope I misunderstood the OP.

[Moderator Hat ON]

Aw, and I was just going to warn you not to call people “idiot” in GD. Well, for future reference: “Don’t call posters ‘idiot’ in GD.” There.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

[gigi]

*Originally posted by evilbeth *
I mean, I think women are less likely to fight back violently against someone they know and have previously been nice to. It is much easier to beat the shit out of someone you don’t know for messing with you than it is the guy you thought was really cool an hour before.

This, and what MikeG said toward the beginning of the thread about what your trained reaction is, I think determine a lot of the pattern of fighting back. Speaking only for myself, if someone jumped out of the shadows and attacked me, my reaction would be to freeze up. By the time I realized what’s up I may be overpowered, or there may be a weapon involved to keep me paralyzed with fear. In the context of acquaintance rape, as above you may be having a nice time or even making out, and by the time you’re up under a guy (even without the intention to have intercourse) you’re not in a position to fight back with any effectiveness.

[djbdjb]

*Originally posted by EJsGirl *
**
And I hope I just didn’t understand your earlier comments above. You didn’t mean that those things (nudity, dinner, presents, acquaintance, good foreplay) entitle a man to sex, right?
**

Right, because I said:

Originally posted by djbdjb
**
No clothes worn by a woman; no money paid for dinner, presents; no long acquaintance; no previous foreplay entitle a man to sex.
**

*Originally posted by EJsGirl *
**
I never got the impression from the other thread that “date rape” victims never fought back, so I just didn’t get your OP. And I also agree that having different terms for different “forms” of rape is not really a good thing, as it seems to imply that there are degrees of rape. Which I don’t think there are.
**

I know of course that some victims of date rape fight back, so I shouldn’t have started this tread implying that there were none. However, most of the people that shared some details of their attacks did not fight:
Needs2know, Dangeroosa, magdalena (states she was intoxicated), PunditLisa. Trixie stated she fought, prayed but did not scream, and Stoidella struggled and hurt her head in the struggle. (I hope I have summarized accurately).

Perhaps at this point I could ask: Now that you have thought about it a little bit and someone has pointed out how even strong men have soft little eyeballs and scrotums, if you had a chance again, would you eye-gouge and scrotum-grab?

Doug

[magdalene]

if you had a chance again, would you eye-gouge and scrotum-grab?

Oh yeah! That boy would be prying what was left of his balls out from under my fingernails.

Do you understand, after hearing our collective stories, that it’s not always clear what is happening until it is too late? For instance - when do you start fighting?

[Helen_s_Eidolon]

I’m going to have to put a word in on trained response.

I have a female friend, and both of us are very different. One time, a man walked up to her in a hallway in our school and cornered her, then touched her breast. She didn’t know him, and was scared, and just stood there doing nothing.

Another example: I was in the doorway of a room where only my friends and people I knew were hanging out. I felt a finger poke my side. I turned around and viciously smacked away the hand.

I respond with an instinctual fight response. My friend does not.

Which would lead me to say that if we were both in the same situation, a man on top of us who we previously wanted to be tehre with but had changed our minds, I would struggle, slap and claw as soon as I realized I was being held, and my friend would remain passive.

Both cases would be rape. The difference in response would be due to our personalities.
I hope I wasn’t too long-winded or roundabout in my point.

[The_Ryan]

*Originally posted by evilbeth *
First of all, not all date rapes are by “friends”. They are often by guys (I apologize for using only male attackers–I know women can rape men but I can’t think of a better “pronoun” to indicate either sex so I’m just going with the male-on-female scenario for right now)

I don’t get it. I really don’t get it. You use the word “he” when you know that not all rapists are male, yet you object to my use of the word “friend” when the person in question may in fact be simply a close acquantice. If you recognize the need to simplify your own language, why do you not recognize the need for others to simplify their language?

*Originally posted by The Ryan ***
Really? You think so? I think that if one were to go to the police say “Hey, I gave a bunch of money to one of my friends, but it only because I was afraid of him beating me up”, you’d have a hard time getting the police to prosecute. **

Consider this. On my way to work, there are some homeless men that I stop and give change to every once and a while.

Sure, just change the subject :rolleyes:.

However, one night as I’m walking to my car, one of them mugs me and takes all my money. Now, is this man somehow less guilty of the crime of theft just because I have seen him a few times and given him some change on occasion? No–that’s absurd.

Just where did the issue of “less guilty” come in? I never said anything about anyone’s guilt. What I said was that if you accuse a friend of mugging you, it will be very difficult to convince the police that a crime did in fact take place. I said nothing about whether or not a crime did take place, I just said that it would be hard to prove that one took place, just as in the case of date rape it is difficult to prove that a crime took place.

I’ve heard people say that you can’t compare mugging to rape because while it is common for people to go out and give sex to strangers all the time (women going out to bars and bringing men home for one night stands) but people don’t just go around giving out money to strangers so the line to be crossed isn’t as clear. This is a crock. People give out money to strangers all the time. People give panhandlers change. People put money into the little red Salvation Army kettle. People donate money to buy veteren’s newsletters or poppies.

Do you really not see a difference between giving someone a couple of cents and giving them your entire wallet? Did you really not notice this distinction?

However, this casual giving of money to strangers is never questioned when people get mugged. Yet, have casual sex and it will be a very big issue if you are ever raped.

It is an issue if it is on the same proportion. If it is widely known that I often give twenty dollar bills to total strangers, that will make it more difficult for me to press mugging charges against someone. If it is widely known that I often hand out quarters to complete strangers, that might be used against me, but it would not be a very strong defense. If it widely known that a certain woman will have sex with complete strangers, that will make it more difficult for her to press rape charges against someone. If it is widely known that she kisses complete strangers (which is a much better analogy to giving out spare change than having sex is), that might be used against her, but it would not be a very strong defense (unless the jury are sexist, which comes to think of it is quite possible).