OK, I’ll be in my bunk…
Are you looking for people who remained religious, but stopped self-identifying as Catholic, or people who just gone agnostic/atheist? Because the latter shouldn’t be too hard to find.
I personally don’t recall a transitional stage from “Catholicism” to “general belief in God, but not considering myself Catholic” to agnostic atheism. I just went through a “going through the motions” stage and then decided I really don’t believe in any of this stuff, so I dumped my Catholicism, Christianity, and theism all in one go.
I wonder if you read Psalm 82 KJV, and John 10. I think it speaks a lot about divinity,and what it means.
Re-reading this the thought came to me that God is pro-choice? Mary had the right to chose to be pregnant or not!
I think more the former than the latter, though both are acceptable.
I was given the full Catholic treatment—my parents made me go to Mass every Sunday and sent me to Catholic schools from pre-K through my bachelor’s degree. Eighteen solid years of formal Catholic indoctrination—and none of it took. I quit practicing as soon as I got away to college. Eventually, by the time I was 25, I decided I was definitely not Catholic anymore, and I have never looked back since. But I’m still theist in a freeform Pagan way.
I like Mary because it’s obvious (especially in my ancestral land of Sicily) that in popular veneration she’s a continuation of the Goddess. Not in official Church doctrine, but in the hearts of the common people. When the worship of the Egyptian goddess Isis was widespread all over the Roman Empire (I visited the Temple of Isis in Pompeii), as far as France and Britain, the Empire tried for centuries to stamp out Isis worship and failed. Then the Romans went Christian and finally got the people to shift from Isis and Cybele to Mary—but it was a hollow victory, since she still matters to people the way the Goddess did. Jesus and the Pope are practically an afterthought in Sicily, unofficially. It’s really all about Maria. The original Goddess in ancient Sicily, pre-Greek, pre-Roman, was the Earth Mother Ceres, who was called Kerri by the indigenous Sicel people. Those ancient traditions are still alive, albeit in nominally Christianized form.
I have no use for patriarchal religion, which perpetuates both misogyny and homophobia, and I think a change is long overdue. Misogyny and homophobia are so integral to the patriarchal construction of power, I don’t think it can ever be reformed. It needs to be all chucked out.
Whoops, looks like I missed my chance! I never even heard of this until today. By 1983 I was already long gone from Catholicism and wasn’t even paying any attention. Not that it makes the slightest difference to me. I don’t care in the slightest if the Church still considers me Catholic. It’s of no more consequence in reality than the Mormons’ claiming to baptize dead people who in life either never heard of them or else despised them.
I haven’t been to church since my grandmother’s funeral almost 22 years ago. But I even though I hate the whole thing, I would still go pro forma for the funeral of one of my close family members, because family really does matter to me.
Respect is one of my core values, and as a rule I show respect towards anyone’s religion. Although homophobic, misogynist religion really puts that to the test. While I will heartily denounce the religious doctrines I find inimical toward women and LGBT people, I still don’t diss believers to their face. Example: At my grandmother’s funeral, I was in the front pew. At Communion time the priest came along and thrust a wafer at me. I didn’t eat it, but took it and stuck it in my pocket. In the car on the way out of there, I took it out and showed it to my ex, who said “What are you keeping that thing around for? Throw it away!” and took it and tossed it into the ashtray. I retrieved it and put it back in my pocket, saying we shouldn’t disrespect other people’s faith. At home I gave it to my mother, explaining that while I in good conscience couldn’t partake of it, I still wanted to show respect for what she believed was sacred. Mom got so happy at this little gesture. I scored major Mom points that day and it cost me nothing. I care less than nothing for the Catholic Church, but family is important to me, Catholic or not.
I totally get this same feeling with the Virgin de Guadalupe, the Catholic patron saint and spiritual queen of the common people in Mexico. Some Chicanos wonder about the strategic sighting of the Catholic Virgin on Tepeyac Hill, which was the place where the ancient Aztec Tonantzin had been worshipped in a temple (destroyed by the Spanish).
Tonantzin means “Our Sacred Mother” in the Nahuatl language, and She is the Aztec earth and fertility Goddess.
Mexicolore…
Exactly, florez, that’s what I’m talking about. There are so many examples like that in different countries. Yours is the best example of all.
Wonderful opinion piece in yesterday’s New York Times: “Many Kinds of Catholics” by Frank Bruni. He explains what’s clear to most American Catholics, although the Vatican and Rick Santorum don’t seem to get it: Lots of people self-identify as Catholics mainly as an element of ethnic upbringing, not because they are in lockstep agreement with the Pope. It’s not a bit unusual for Catholics to follow their own conscience on contraception or virtually any hot-button political or social issue regardless of what the Church says about them.
One of the great ironies of history: A major center of Cybele worship was Ephesos. When, in the Biblical book of Acts, Paul and Barnabas escape from the rioting crowd yelling out “Great is Diana of the Ephesians!”, they’re not talking about the virginal huntress of the sanitized myths, but about the Magna Deorum Mater. Now, at the Cr5ucifixion, Jesus assigns the care of his mother over to John bar Zebedee, the beloved disciple. Tradition suggests: (a) she spent the remainder of her life living with him; (b) as the Twelve dispersed, he (with her) made his way to Ephesus and became leader of the church there. Where her cultus accreted the Cybele traditions. Holy Mother of God, Batman!
That’s what came up during my own classes, yes.
The Church <> The Pope.
Quite true. Cybele was of Anatolian origin. The name has been traced back to Hittite times, but is certainly much older. Goddess images with the same iconography as Cybele have been found at Çatalhöyük (7,000 BC) and Göbekli Tepe (10,000 BC), which is the oldest religious structure ever found. The Greeks identified her with their Rhea, the mother of the gods. I think she was accorded the epithet Mother of the Gods out of a recognition that her cultus was older than any other.*
Incidentally, Batman is also the name of a city in Anatolia.
*Charlie: They are calling you Bapu. Father.
Gandhi: We must be getting old, Charlie!
I do not doubt that respect is one of your core values at all. But I think there’s been a misunderstanding here.
When offered communion at a Catholic mass, it is perfectly respectful to decline. Nobody will take it as a sign of disrespect. After all, even Catholics who are regular churchgoers and communicants pass on communion for reasons of their own, and nobody thinks twice about it. It would be considered rude to ask, or even wonder.
However, it is shockingly disrespectful, verging on blasphemous, to take the Eucharist, put it in your pocket, leave the church, show it to someone (who then throws it in an ashtray:eek:), and then give it to someone else (Catholic or no), who does who knows what with it.
Really, after “[e]ighteen solid years of formal Catholic indoctrination,” you should have known better.
Or maybe you’re whooshing us.
I don’t see the blasphemy? I’m not up to scratch on Catholic theology, but I think it’s desecration of the Eucharist rather than kidnapping that’s the big deal.
My parents were Eucharistic ministers and they regularly took the consecrated body of Christ out of the Church (albeit in a pix and with expressed permission). Giving it to a Catholic relative shouldn’t be a big deal, right?
It wasn’t transported properly, it wasn’t treated respectfully and it wasn’t taken out of the church for an appropriate use such as taking it to someone who cannot go to the church to get it; it was taken out of the church because the person who took it didn’t know that the Church considers it polite to say “no thank” but does not consider it polite to stick a Host in your pocket or in an ashtray.
The intended use of a Host is to be eaten. You consider it proper to stick a piece of unwrapped food in a pocket or an ashtray?
Church = the organization
church = the building
This is true in America. I recently discovered that it’s not the case on the Philippines, though. I tagged along to Christmas mass with some friends and raised a lot of eyebrows by declining the Eucharist.
Your parents were Eucharistic ministers (I think “extraordinary minister” is the correct term). The OP was not. Your parents were taking the consecrated host from the church to someone who intended to receive the Eucharist, with the approval of the appropriate authority (whether that’s the parish priest, or the local bishop I don’t know).
It might not be blasphemy (I did say “verging on” blasphemy"), although letting someone take it and throw it in an ashtray must come pretty close to desecration. And we don’t know where that host ended up, other than that the OP gave it to her mother.
I’m just really, really surprised that someone who claims “”[e]ighteen solid years of formal Catholic indoctrination" would think that this is the “respectful” thing to do. It’s not, not by a long shot.
If people are offended by that image, I wonder how they would react to the dirty joke about Robert Redford and whatever current pope accidentally being sent to the wrong places for several hours, while the papework was gettig fixed. They meet in the middle when Robert Redford is on the way to hell, and the pope is finally on his way to eternal bliss. RR apologized pofusely for the mix-up, although it wasn’t his doing. The pope is just glad that his lifelong dream (besides entering heaven) will finally be fulfilled…
[spoiler]“…and I’ve been longing so much to finally see her.”
RR: (off-balance) "Um, what? Did you say… the Vir -?"
Pope: (repeating) “Yes, the Virgin Mary.”
RR: (Looking a bit sad) “Ohh. I’m really sorry now, Your Holiness.”
(Looks at his wrist-watch.) “… I’'m afraid that you’re about twenty minutes too late.”
[/spoiler]
In my opinion, Johanna’s behavior toward the host, was not disrespectful.
To refuse the host at her grandmother’s funeral would have been disrespectful.
Johanna put it in her pocket and showed her ex, who did disrespect it, by putting it into an ashtray.
Again, she shows respect by saving the host from being in the ashtray.
To leave it in there would have been disrespectful.
Later, Johanna offers the host to her mom, who fully accepts the idea that the host is sacred.
The Mom appreciates her daughter’s respect for Mom’s beliefs, knowing that Johanna does not agree with these beliefs.
This to me would be a great sign of respect coming from my own daughter. That she respects my beliefs without accepting them herself.
It seems to me, that Johanna went above and beyond in her attempt to show respect for a homophobic, and misogynistic religion, that in her own words is 'inimical toward women and the LGBT Community".
Perhaps you’re not a Catholic, and so don’t know this, but to refuse communion at a mass (any mass) is not considered disrespectful by Catholics. Observant Catholics pass on communion all the time, for any number of reasons.
However, pretending to take communion and stashing the consecrated host in one’s pocket is astoundingly disrespectful. It is at least on a level with wearing one’s dirty shoes inside a mosque, or (for a man) refusing to cover one’s head when in a synagogue. Probably even more disrespectful, since Catholics believe that the consecrated host is the actual body of Christ, miraculously transformed from bread. There’s no analogue in Islam or Judaism. The closest thing I can think of would be ripping a page out of the Torah scroll when in an Orthodox synagogue and putting it in one’s pocket and taking it out of the synagogue, showing it around to people who have only contempt for the Jewish faith, and then giving it to someone who happens to be Jewish.
The fact that the OP’s mother believes that the host is sacred (it’s actually more than sacred to a believing Catholic) is irrelevant. Only a qualified extraordinary minister may transport a consecrated host, and then only for the very specific purpose of delivering communion to someone who is unable to come to the church.
A person may believe (with some justification) that the Catholic Church is “homophobic, and misogynistic.” But if that person still intends to behave in a respectful manner when in church, then observing the rules concerning who may take communion, and how the consecrated host is to be treated, is the most basic level of respect.