When is a child an adult?

Great Debates
1

In a fit of serial thread spawning, this thread discussing children having sex (which had in turn been inspired by a thread aking for thoughts about handling walking in on a 13 yo step-daughter giving a boyfreind a blow job) is inspiring me to ask the broader question - when is a child competent to make decisions for him or herself like an adult?

Obviously the answer actually depends on the sort of decision, has no hard and fast bright clear line, and varies some depending on the child and the circumstance. Which of course is what makes it such great fodder for debate!

Personally I view it as a process akin to learning to ride a bike. At first a child should have very little chance of falling down, ride a trike, parents make all choices or at least in deciding the range of choices that are acceptable - certainly into most of middle school for many sorts of choices. Next are training wheels, parents provide firm guidance and rule setting but the kid has a chance to fall on his or her face a little. Just not enough to be devastating in consequence. And so on - as a child progresses to a 2 wheeler with parent riding along side to going out into the world on his/her own, so does the teen-ager progress into adulthood.

Thoughts?

Please identify yourself by whether or not you have children and if so how old they are,. as I think that informs our perspectives some. Please provide examples of the kinds of decisions that a child at a particuar age should be allowed to make.

Thank you.

2

Here’s a highly relevant news story. Floridas’s Department of Children & Families got a judge to approve an injunction that prevents a 13 year old girl living in a state shelter from getting an abortion because she “is too young and immature to make an informed medical decision”.

Florida does not have a parental/guardian inform/consent law.

Also…

Please don’t do this. It’s an intellectually dishonest question that is irrelevant to the discussion.

3

Really? Why do you think so?

I am a biased source by virtue of the fact that I am thinking from the POV of a parent of a 19 yo, 14 yo, 10 yo and almost 4 yo, and many years away from being a teen myself (although I do remember enough to know to be fearful for my children’s survival if they are anywhere near as stupid as I was). It colors my perspective or informs it depending on your take, but it is relevant information. A seventeen yo has a different set of recent experiences. A single adult another.

4

The human brain takes about 25 years to fully develop, so from a biological perspective, that’s your answer right there.

5

Everyone has an extensive and unique set of experiences that contribute to their opinion on any number of subjects. By asking for a single piece of demographic information in addition to opinions on the actual question, you’re basically saying, “I’m going to weigh the arguments of people that fit certain criteria more heavily than others” instead of determining the quality of the argument on its own merit.

A more extreme example:
What do people think of Racial Profiling? Please identify yourself as black or not.

6

I do not believe this question makes any sense. If the ‘child’ could make decisions as an ‘adult’ then surely it is not a ‘child’ but an ‘adult.’ And in any case we don’t have analytical criteria that define ‘adult competency.’ We have some lines we’ve drawn for specific purposes but they are not meant to characterize “being an adult” anywhere outside their own limited application. Might as well ask, “When is a car speeding?” The question is hopelessly vague. That is not to say we cannot imagine a context in which there is a clear answer, of course we can, but that was not the question.

I know we agree about more than we disagree. :slight_smile:

I have no children. I think this informs my position better, because a child can confide in me things that they would not tell their parents for fear of disapproval or punishment merely by being inquisitive. No parent wants to be in that position, generally, but it is the unfortunate nature of authority to ensure the creation of such relationships.

I do like your bicycle example. But to it I would add the example of learning to count. When do we know a person “understands how to count”? We all know what it means to count, of course… but when do we know another understands? And what do we have to do to get there? And how much of the burden of creating an understanding relies on the student rather than the teacher? What can be taught merely by example without practice? How do we know a person isn’t ready to learn something?

We should like to say that a person learning to ride a bike must at least already know how to run or walk, and hence have a sense of balance (note I didn’t say an understanding of balance, balance isn’t something that is understood, it is a behavior). What are the prerequisite behaviors and lessons that should be available to someone learning something?

But this is not sufficient for complex behaviors. There is another question we must ask: has what I taught them ensured they will progress on their own? For counting is like that: knowing to count is not a finite operation, we must get the idea that the person can go on. “1, 2, 3, and so on, like I’ve already done.” And in the right circumstances, someone who understands how to count in, say, base 10, could be shown how to count in base 16. “The operation is really the same, it builds on what you already know.” If we teach them how to count, and give them hexadecimal symbol sets, are we sure they really need instruction to go on here? --if they do need any, what form will that instruction be? (Wouldn’t it just be “the same” instructions? For counting is like that.)

If we’ve helped a person learn to walk, the behavior, what do we need to do for them to run? Can we stop them from running? What would that require?

Suppose we wish to develop trust, intimacy, an understanding of conventions regarding privacy, and a knowledge of what sexual behavior is (operationally speaking). Can we genuinely stop them from becoming sexual creatures when all the parts are there and they know how to go on? What would that take? What purpose would it serve? In doing so, what other lessons would we invariably (and perhaps unintentionally) be teaching?

7

I think there are a couple zillion circumstances in which children of various ages are really poor candidates to be making their own decisions… but are still the best candidates available.

20 years ago I was hoping for brain-dead Planned Parenthood or NARAL strategists to pull a Thurgood Marshall and bring a case to the Supreme Court in which a pregnant 14 year old seeks the right to refrain from having the abortion that her parents want for her, so as to establish that it’s her freaking decision.

You can just “liberate the children” and eliminate the institution of childhood and legally treat children of any age (13, 8, 2, six months) the same as you would an adult. But it’s also stupid and oppressive and morally wrong to strip so many people of so many rights as we do now. Most 10 year olds have the maturity to do most things that are permitted to adults but not to children. I think the medieval “age of reason” was 7.

If I were King and got to make the rules:

a) Age at which children’s wishes have to be taken into account in custody disputes — age at which they can put it into words.

b) Age at whlch children can take a driving test and, if they pass it, be issued a driver’s license and drive a vehicle — any age. If the test can’t weed out the folks who shouldn’t be driving, fix the damn test.

c) Voting — Automatic right to vote at 18, can be obtained at earlier age by taking and passing tests akin to US citizenship tests.

d) Sex, right to consent — With partner your own age or less than 10% older, any age; becomes universal age of consent at 16, or as consequence of emancipation (see below)

e) Sign and be bound to contract —Automatic rights and responsibilities at 18, can be obtained at any earlier age by taking a test designed to assess understandings of responsibilities and clauses.

f) Right to accept employment — Automatic rights and responsibilities at 15, can be obtained at any earlier age by taking a test designed to assess understandings of rights and responsibilities in employment.

g) Freedom from parental or Quasi-parental authority (emancipation) —Available at any age via taking and passing above tests; investigation must determine that emancipation is voluntarily sought.

h) Constitutional protections, rights enumerated in federal, state, or local law —Any exceptions on the basis of age must meet a rigorous standard of being of overriding importance to the safety of the community. Otherwise rights pertaining to adults (freedom of speech, association, etc) shall be held to be possessed by children as well. Any exceptions on the basis of age must provide for aptitude testing which must be fair and reasonable, for providing exceptions to the exceptions (i.e., no rigid law unequally restricting or unequally granting rights on the basis of age can be passed or enforced).

8

Uh, can’t. Dammit.

9

ModernHamlet, actually my intent was less to weight particular opinions, than to potentially falsify my hypothesis that few parents would question the concept that teens still need guidance and limits, whereas those without kids would identify more strongly with the capacities of teens to decide on their own. But I understand your point and it has some validity.

erl, we’ve never let our agreeing more than disgreeing stop us from having a good debate before! Specific to sexual function, I maintain that the requisite skills to practice and acquire are less experience in the physical activity itself, than the experience of managing complex interpersonal relationships with highly emotionally charged material. Handle some firecrackers for a while before you try to set off fireworks.

AHunter, if nothing else I greatly appreciate the consitency of your perspectives regarding compentence of individuals and how to judge it.

10

I had actually started a similar thread based on a Time magazine article some time ago. I know people in their 30s who barely qualify as adults.

The question is what do we consider “adult”? Is it actually being on your own and running your own life or merely having the ability to do so. Is a 26 yr old living with his parents and spending all his money on going out and partying with the guys an “adult”. Or is he still a big adolescent, only with bigger and more expensive toys?

11

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?

Yes, ‘n’ how many years can some people exist
Before they’re allowed to be free?

The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind,
The answer is blowin’ in the wind.

12

How’s that an answer? Are you suggesting that people are all children until age 25? If so, how should we treat those 24 and under differently than we do those 25 and up?

Also, I tend to agree with AHunter3, however, I wonder who/how the tests would be designed and administered. I know many teens who I’m sure are competant enough to pass any ‘adult’ test you’d throw at them, but one of the biggest differences I see in ‘adult’ teens and adults (generally, not exclusively) is the ability or lack thereof to handle crises.

13

I’ve always wondered if our culture could benefit from a clear line between childhood and adult status-- a rite of passage, if you will.

Perhaps young boys would not be so eager to have babies of their own, or to strut around in a macho fashion if by completing the rite, they knew society viewed them as men. They would feel comfortable in achieving that status and not always feel so desperate to prove their manliness to others through violence or posturing.

Perhaps young girls would benefit as well, not straining to act more “mature” (which to many young girls seems to be defined by too much makeup and too little clothing) if they could complete a rite and stand up proud as women.

Looking back over human history, it always seems that we’ve had some sort of solid line between childhood and adulthood. For the most part, it was marriage, but different cultures have had different methods. Perhaps we subconciously feel “lost” without that dividing line.

14

And I think the answer to the OP is, it depends on what social norms are in place for adults, i.e. what society expects someone considered an ‘adult’ to be able to do. For the society we live in, I agree with AHunter3. It’s just too variable to do it any other way.

15

The wouldn’t she also be too immature to decide to give birth? Should this be decided by a coin toss?

16

Well, what does our society expect from adults?

Adults should be able to make well informed decisions while voting for their representatives in office. They should be able to drink, smoke, gamble, drive, have sex and use guns responsibly. They should understand that there is a difference between R rated movies, all types of porn and reality. Most importantly adults should be able to make well informed decisions for themselves. Adults should ideally be people that everyone else in society can tolerate living with.

All this can be summarized by saying simply that “adults should be intelligent.” Now some people will never be as intelligent as we would want them to be, but who is going to be in charge of identifying these people? It is very difficult to create a legitimate authority on intelligence. The age limit is there because congress assumed that 21 year olds have gathered enough experience in their life time to make intelligent decisions that affect themselves and society. It was lowered to 18, because 18 year olds make good soldiers. Not the most scientific method, but it is something that most people in society think is fair.

What we need is a fool proof system of determining the level of intelligence of people. I can’t think of anything near fool proof.

17

Another vote for what AHunter3 said… with one criticism: if we’re going to have tests to allow people under those specific ages to vote, sign contracts, and become employed, don’t the ages become unnecessary? Why not make everyone take the tests, regardless of age? That would ensure (1) incompetent people won’t be given rights and responsibilities they can’t handle, no matter how old they are, and (2) the tests will have to be reasonable enough for everyone, so young people won’t be unfairly held to a higher standard than older people.

No, I think you can. You just have to change the way you treat adults at the same time. Instead of assuming that everyone over a certain age is competent in some particular area, and everyone under it is incompetent, you can treat everyone the same by treating them as individuals who may or may not be competent, regardless of age.

Whether it would be practical is another question. Certainly, it’s a waste of time to give citizenship tests and driving tests to six month old infants, because there’s no hope for any of them passing. It can be OK to draw a line as long as we know for sure that no one under that line could possibly pass the tests.