By the way I like the rampant sexism some women in this thread feel free to share. Men acting as they’ve evolved to act over millions of years? Men responding to clear sexual signals? Why, they’re cavemen, children, out of control. I bet those dirty, filthy men even get erections when they see attractive women. Erections that those women can see and be offended by! The pigs!
Of course, I’m sure the people making those claims would say that any woman who talks about her biological clock is an unevolved, troglodyte, cave-woman broodmare.
Right?
Right?
This is the most excessive outrage/discussion/discourse over a pair of breasts since Janet Jackson failed to properly afix her chestplate, and with regrettably fewer visuals.
I think what those who feel driven to post such comments are going to take away from this thread is that it’s perfectly okay to do so and that any woman who doesn’t like it should just shut up because she’s a lying hypocritical attention whore troll cocktease anyway.
*I disagree. I think it would be great for the board if people who feel driven to post obnoxious remarks would practice self-censorship. What are the alternatives? If people don’t self-censor then we get either a free for all or greater censorship from the top down, and I don’t see how either of those is preferable to having people try a little harder not to be jerks.
More specifically, I don’t think it would be any loss to the boards at all if no Doper ever made any of those “Post photos of your sexy body!” or “I’m masturbating while reading your post!” type “jokes” ever again. Even people in this thread who’ve said they don’t find them offensive have agreed that they aren’t funny, so who’d miss these “jokes” when they were gone? I don’t think anyone enjoys them but the people who make them. So if those posters decided on their own that it was better to stop saying such things then everyone would win.
I’m sick of seeing “SHOW US YER TITS!” posts whenever a female Doper makes any reference to her breasts in any context. I was sick of it a long time ago, but I never started a thread like this because I knew how it would go. I wish I’d underestimated the Dope there, but I didn’t. I think it’s very unfortunate that someone who shared my opinion that such posts are tiresome, obnoxious, and sexist has been called a troll and all kinds of other names, had old threads dug up to be used against her, and had everything down to her username criticized.
It’s too bad for Tracy that she expected better of the Dope.
Looking back at the OP in this thread, her “fantastically broad claim” was that it was “[her] impression that some Dopers are unwilling to stop their sexist behaviour”. She didn’t say all Dopers, most Dopers, or even many Dopers. Just some. How dare she.
The funny thing is, when anyone brings up a case of their wife or daughter (or, occasionally, themselves) experiencing sexual harassment at work or school, there’s usually a response of, ‘Complain to HR or a higher-up! We live in 2009, women are equal and surely no one can get away with that sort of thing.’ As if there’s no longer any real-life equivalent to ‘Lighten up, baby.’ As if, as online, it’s not easier to just ignore it, even if it burns you up.
Here I thought the argument was that men shouldn’t be obnoxious and women who don’t want their tits to be public conversation in a sexual context shouldnt bring up how sexually attractive their tits are, in public conversation.
Do you wonder why, at all, those arguing your point have to lie quite so frequently to make it?
You are so right, preach it!
The girl chooses a user name remarkably similar to the most famous porn star in all of human history, and instead of changing it when she finds out, keeps it so she can constantly look down up those uncultured fools who don’t get the reference she was going for. She doesn’t change her user name, she doesn’t accept that, yeah, if you name is very similar to a porn star people might make the connect. Nope, she keeps it so she can offense-troll and get all huffy when people make an easily predictable mistake.
Who could possibly object to behavior like that?
“Hey, I have really amazing tits. Don’t talk about my amazing tits!!!”
If only more shrewishly annoying offenderati would get really, really annoyed by biology, the Dope would be a much better place.
Maybe if enough of you get snippy enough and pinch your brows thoroughly enough, women on the dope will feel safe enough from the rapist-mentality of those cavemen that they can casually mention a total non sequitor about how sexually attractive their breasts are without any of those men having the nerve to flirt.
If anything, the defenses of both sides are more disturbing to me than the orignal interchange. Thank you for being a voice of reason in this overheated thread.
You raise a VERY good point and I agree with you. I don’t like that I have to self-censor as a woman. Perhaps I’m just so used to it, given my job? It’s second nature for me to neutralize myself because I deal with naked bodies and people in very vulnerable positions every day. Some general thoughts:
Let me reiterate that I have no patience with those types (male and female, but I concur that this more a male thing than a female) who tend toward this kind of “flirting”. It’s obvious, juvenile and usually tips over into gross. I don’t approve of it; I don’t like it. But here’s the thing: we can’t stop it. IMO, what we can do is when it happens, call the poster on it. You may say that is what TL did, but she didn’t, really. Given a few factors: her user name, her proclivity to post about her sex life and the way she worded her comment (“it makes my boobs look amazing”) all add to her being disingenuous about her complaints re boorish men.
This gets complicated and many layered, because I am pointing out that TL did NOT self-censor and that is (supposedly) a good thing. But is it? I refer to everyone here, not just women. True, women are tasked with more self-censorship than men (and that is unfair), but don’t ALL people self-censor to some extent here or in RL?
We don’t say (and if you do, I no longer want to know you), “I’m off to the toilet to have a bowel movement now.” “I had 4 wet dreams this week, a new personal best.” etc. Of course the vast majority of us don’t say such things in public in RL, the problem is that we aren’t in RL (for most of us): we’re in this twilight world of anonymous cyberspeak. We can say anything! We can admit to anything! It’s so freeing, but it’s also fraught with difficulties: why shouldn’t a woman be able to relate her loss of virginity on a message board? Why is one poster’s sexual predilection for painful sex silenced, but other, perhaps more “bizarre” sexual tastes tolerated? What are the boundaries? Who decides? How do we come to a consensus on “appropriate” interaction, when (almost) anything goes?
I don’t have all the answers, but I think the ire this situation has raised and the questions that it leaves us with are important ones. Pragmatically, though, I don’t think we can abolish “cite?” in threads that mention female body parts. There are too many people here who will go for the lame joke (especially now that they know it’s a button to push); there are too many newbies; there are too many immature types. Perhaps the answer is to let it happen, but not start a Pit thread complaining about your ill treatment that you were party to. (general you)
I completely agree. But I will admit to also being fascinated at how we talk past one another and how even the simplest of statements can be parsed so very differently. I acquit the men of malice aforethought–something I don’t think others in this thread have done. I truly don’t see how saying “this blouse makes my boobs look amazing” is an innocuous remark. I think it was a loaded one and I think TL knew it. Just my 2 cents. I hope this thread turns into a thoughtful discussion of whether or not she should be able to say something like that w/o blowback, but I doubt it.
But of course, I’m sure, that women who start a sexual topic of conversation and then act like naive little innocent flowers, horribly offended if someone responds… well, that’s just some good behavior. And if they can sling insults at men for responding to their sexual topics of conversation, all the better, amirite?
Anything else this holds true for?
“I bought a new car… don’t anybody talk about my new car!”
“I have several cats… don’t anybody talk about my cats!”
“I like chocolate milk… don’t anybody talk about my chocolate milk!”
No, if anybody tried any of those, we’d say they were trolling. But when a woman pulls that bullshit? Why, some folks leap at the chance to manufacture charges of sexism and allege that men being interested in a woman’s mention of her sexual attractiveness are barbaric and unevolved. And if they point out that she’s started the conversation and made it a topic of discussion, why, they’re using the same exact argument as rapists. Not that it’s got anything to do with rape, ya know, just that they’re arguing exactly like rapists would if rapists flirted instead of, ya know, raped.
Trolling about cars, cats or chocolate milk? That’s just wrong, don’t bring up a topic of conversation if you’re going to flip out when people respond.
But trolling about your sexual bits?
Fine, evidently.
And proof that men are pigs to boot.
So you’re pretty much at the : “no I can’t even attempt to refute the facts ,because I’d look like that idiot who claimed ‘my breasts look amazing’ is totally different from ‘my tits are amazing’, so I’ll just needle you.” phase?
Just so we’re on the same page.
Not that I don’t appreciate the role you’re playing. Someone has to defend the rights of trolls to start sexual topics of conversation and then cop a moral indignation trip when someone responds. Because, obviously, opposing the right to troll freely is sexist, and a limitation on women’s God given right to bring up topics of conversation with the plan of insulting anybody who responds.
I mean, if you and your ilk won’t stand up for trolling, who will?
On a serious note just in case you planned on posting seriously instead of supporting trolling, do you draw your logic to its conclusion? Are you fine with people starting other topics of discussion and then responding as if a horrible offense has been committed when people respond? Or is it just women who have the power to start a topic with the sole intent of insulting those stupid enough to respond as if the topic wasn’t a troll?
You are not alone in that reaction. Just so you know.
I would not be opposed to discussing some of the serious issues brought up by this thread in another thread–preferably in a different forum. But some of the vehemence expressed by people on both sides of this thread have made me no longer desire to participate in this discussion.
There aren’t any facts in this debate (which is why your bizarre hyperventilation about liars is so funny); merely opinions on social norms and standards. I posted my actual thoughts earlier - I think that while not necessarily sexist, the people who feel compelled to post “pics plz!!1” messages are pretty tragic and should probably find a more socially valuable hobby (such as putting chewing-gum moustaches on subway posters). Moreover, once someone has asked you politely to stop, arguing that you have been given carte blanche by an earlier post of that person is pretty rich; what, you’re going to take their subtextual word over their actual word? Please. Then needling that person about it in two more threads is just pure dickery. If the people involved were even vaguely mature, the conversation would have gone:
“Hey, can you guys not ask for pics of my tits?”
“Yeah, sure - sorry.”
Then we could’ve all gone home for tea and medals. Instead, certain people unaccountably insisted on their inalienable right to demand boob photos, and it all went to shit.
The attempted analogies about cars, cats and milk are just stupid, and not even worth addressing. Unless you’re talking about cars with tits, which would obviously be awesome.
If your flirting with someone makes them uncomfortable, stop.
If you tell a public, mixed group of people sexual facts about you, don’t act like a dramaqueen offense-troll by getting all bent out of shape when someone responds to the sexual topic you started in a sexual manner.
Don’t act as if every mention of a woman of her body in general is an invitation from her to flirt.
Don’t act as if an obvious sexual reference a woman makes to her body is a chaste reference that only a pig of a man could possibly respond to as if the woman had initiated a sexual topic of conversation.
Treating men who have a sexual reaction to women as if they’re ‘boys behaving badly’, or cavemen, while women who have maternal instincts or want to get pregnant are just living out the beauty of life reveals a profound level of biophibia and misandry.
And, in general, don’t bring anything up on the internet as a topic of conversation if you’d rather that people didn’t talk about it. Private topics should not be made public if you don’t want them to be in the public sphere.
It seems like the point here is that the eejits in question insisted on continuing in a lewd vein after being asked perfectly nicely to desist. I entirely agree that in the anonymous and permissive environment of t’internet, Tracy’s first post could be taken by some as an indication that she doesn’t mind minor boob discussion (although Christ, if “pics plz” is the best they can manage, buying a copy of “How to Talk to Girls for Dummies” wouldn’t hurt).
But when someone asks you politely to stop, is the sensible reaction to a) stop, or b) act all huffy and bring it up elsewhere in the hope that others will pile on and vindicate you?
I humbly submit that the answer is a), and I don’t think this reveals a deep hatred of mankind on my part.
I agree. I could see both sides at the beginning, but now both of them have degenerated into self parody. But there definitely are a lot of potential issues to discuss.
ETA: Which issues? When does teasing someone about something they said once (or didn’t as with HL) become harassment? does it matter if it’s sexual or can it be anything?
Obviously, I think the person’s comfort level has a lot to do with it–Tracy Lord wasn’t comfortable with this.
I have a pretty risque user name but unlike TL, I intentionally made it so. And I get ribbed from time to time about it even in threads that don’t directly involve it, but I guess if it bothered me, I wouldn’t have chosen the name. I’m pretty sure if I made a big deal out of getting ribbed, a lot of posters would tear me a new slit, so to speak.
“the one that fits perfectly and has excellent darts that makes my waist look tiny and my boobs look amazing.”**
Is Traci a porn sta… sorry, an attention whore? Probably, but everything I read of her just paints a picture of a self-absorbed silly young girl. Like many, she thinks about herself and her appearance quite a lot, and this comes through in her writing.
In a thread about losing your virginity why tell people you are HOT??? I bet you like reminding people you are attractive don’t you. Like a lot of silly young girls. Ooooh, my boobs look great don’t they. Silly girl.
Why start a thread about a creepy stalker who actually appeared to just be a clueless older horny guy? A silly girl acting the victim.
This place isnt giving you what you want? Come back, please. Tell us all about how pretty you are. We will listen, promise, and agree with you and ask you to tell us more and everything. Silly mite. Quick Finn, tell her how hot she is!
Bah, silly girls are dime-a-dozen, and old news.
Signatures. La la tra la la signatures. Signatures. We love the signatures.
Hell yeah.
Well that’s totally wrong of them. But that wasn’t the topic here, but that men are cavemen and unevolved for having a sexual reaction to a woman’s mention of how her breasts are sexually attractive. And, even, that they were so animalistic and insane, that they were taking a totally innocent remark like “my boobs look amazing” as somehow sexual.
I’m happy to agree with that too. It’s artless and sloppy. Some might even call it obnoxious (and some might find it charming). But the claim in the OP here was that it constituted sexism. And people should know that accusations of sexism, racism, and bigotry are just about the most serious charge you can level against someone in modern America short of calling them a child molester, a murder, or a rapist.
You’re honestly claiming that there are ‘no facts’. Like, what I’ve posted isn’t a fact, and when someone deliberately lies about what I’ve said and invents something else, it’s just horrible to point that out?
Nope, sorry. When I pointed out that men shouldn’t flirt obnoxiously and should stop if asked and women shouldn’t talk about how sexually attractive they are if they don’t want it to be a topic of conversation, and someone else says that I’m arguing that men have the right to bother a woman endlessly because, just like a rapist, I’m arguing that she’s “asking for it”?
Yeah, that’s a big ol’ lie.
And I’d contend so is the claim that “my boobs look amazing” isn’t a sexual comment and only someone with ulterior motives would claim it is. Either that or it’s a monumentally stupid thing to claim, but dishonesty seems much, much more likely. For someone to actually claim that someone saying about how sexually attractive her breasts are isn’t a comment on her sexual attractiveness beggars credulity.
No. There’s no difference between bringing up one topic of conversation with the intent of telling anybody who responds to STFU, or bringing up a sexual topic of conversation with the same intent. Why is it trolling to bring up your car and then lash out at anybody who talks about your car but totally different to talk about your sexual attractiveness and then lash out at anybody who talks about your sexual attractiveness?
And it has nothing to do with a woman or a man doing it. If a man told a thread about how huge his schlong was and then acted like a primadonna when a woman tried to flirt with him, we’d all (justly) condemn him for trolling. Let alone how we’d verbally savage him if he claimed that people were acting like rapists when they said that if he didn’t want people to comment on his wang, he shouldn’t have brought it up in conversation. But when women do, we’re told how they’re so very put upon and they’re sick of it and blah blah fucking blah. It’s not about how men’s biology makes them pigs or whatever, or about how responding to a woman who initiates a sexual conversation means you’re justifying your behavior just like a rapist would. .
It’s the simple fact that something you don’t want discussed shouldn’t be made a public topic, and even though you can ask people to stop talking about it once you’ve made it a public topic of conversation, hopping up on a high horse (or a cross) is just boorish.