Boobs for boobs

About This Message Board
1

There is a heated discussion going on in the Pit about the tendency of some men to respond to any and all references to female breasts with a “cite?” type joke. Some people find this annoying under any circumstances; others are primarily annoyed when men come into what is intended as a discussion among women (on topics like buying comfortable bras, dealing with PMS symptoms, ranting about mammograms, etc.) and make jokes about breasts.

If you want to argue about the underlying dynamics, feel free to join the Pit thread in progress.

What I’m proposing here is kind of a referendum on this behavior in general, without calling for new rules. (Let’s prove to TPTB that we can police ourselves!)

Without getting into name-calling or blaming, please address whichever of these questions you have opinions about:

  1. Does it bother you when guys come into threads about “women-talk” (bras, PMS, mammograms) and make boob jokes?

  2. Does it bother you when guys make “Cite?” or other similar jokes in response to a reference to breasts if that post is in an MPSIMS-type thread with much flirting, joking, and bantering?

  3. If there is agreement that this behavior is, in at least some cases, immature and/or obnoxious, how can we deal with this going forward? One suggestion is that we just all agree to flag such behavior with a “knock it off” and a link to this thread in the future. Are there other possible solutions?

Thanks in advance for keeping it civil, all!

2

Oh, right, my answers:

  1. Yes, definitely, I would prefer that people not post stupid comments in serious discussions.

  2. It seems immature to me, but it doesn’t drive me batshit.

  3. The suggested listed is my own, obviously – but it seems to me that we, as a group, should make it clear that this behavior isn’t what we, as a group, want to see, instead of just seething silently.

3

Yes, it does.

No, I feel that flirting even at this level is appropriate in many MPSIMS threads.

In most circumstances in MPSIMS, a mention of body parts will at least get a ‘Cite?’. The poster needs to make their intentions clear. If they do not wish such comments, they should say so. If somebody continues to say ‘Show us yer boobs!’ after she has made it clear that she finds such comments offensive, they are being a jerk.

4

Mod note in response to a query: This question is directed at the SDMB community generally rather than the SDMB staff, but ATMB seems like as good a place as any to discuss it.

5

If it’s in flirty MPSIMS territory, I don’t care and might do it myself.

Elsewhere, it’s rude and should fall under DBAJ - and linked to here and this comic: xkcd: Pix Plz

6

Honestly, it never especially bothered me to have a list of words that couln’t be used, even though I thought it was a bad idea. Even if you eliminate a couple dozen, there’s enough words out there to make your point.

But this is different. The thread that I THNK inspired this discussion was when someone posted about liking a shirt because it made her boobs look “amazing”, and protested when there were requests for cites and pics, and protested further when her protests didn’t stop the comments.

First, if she didn’t think her comment would get some snarky replies, she was remarkably naive.

Second, she does not get to control the course of her threads – once an idea is put out, it goes where it goes until a mod shuts it down. I have no interest in a rule allowing everyone to moderate their own threads – we would all be bored to death by everyone else’s threads in very short order.

Third, I can’t imagine a rule that would rule out off-topic, or even worse, rude comments that wouldn’t draw 10 times the flack that the bad word rule drew. Because it can’t be just about boobs. Boobs are a slippery slope my friends.

I usually post here because I think some goofy thought and post it, and I amuse myself and I hope I amuse some others as well. I can handle not using a list of words (presuming I have a copy of the list), but if I have to think too much about who I offend with my juvenile banter, I will absolutely go elsewhere. Because, really, I can’t think too much about stuff like that. It hurts, and besides, I can ALWAYS think of a reason not to post something if I’m concerned about offending someone.

However, is someone thinks of a rule to address this that they’re not actually embarrassed to post, please go ahead. I’m kind of a legal and language buff, and I’ll be quite impressed if the rule isn’t totally crazy.

7
  1. Does it bother you when guys come into threads about “women-talk” (bras, PMS, mammograms) and make boob jokes?

Yes. It adds nothing to the discussion.

  1. Does it bother you when guys make “Cite?” or other similar jokes in response to a reference to breasts if that post is in an MPSIMS-type thread with much flirting, joking, and bantering?

I don’t know that it rises to the level of actually bothering me but I don’t see the point - the joke is stale, the supposed request isn’t likely to actually be fulfilled, and it’s not really something that makes the responder stand out as attractive and worth getting to know better. But since as stated it is a flirting thread I wouldn’t be in favor of asking anyone to knock it off. If it is not intended as a flirting thread and the person who posted the comment did not intend it to be taken that way, then I think it’s entirely appropriate to ask the responder to knock it off.

  1. If there is agreement that this behavior is, in at least some cases, immature and/or obnoxious, how can we deal with this going forward? One suggestion is that we just all agree to flag such behavior with a “knock it off” and a link to this thread in the future. Are there other possible solutions?

I don’t think it requires a separate rule nor should it require moderator intervention. I agree with you that the best way would be for the community to be self-policing in this matter and I think your suggestion is worth a try. I’m not convinced that we won’t have posters who insist on ignoring requests to knock it off so they can experience what is apparently the sheer joy of needling another poster, but we will have to see what happens.

8

Boyo Jim – none of what you say seems responsive to the questions I raised in the OP. If you wish to discuss the broader (sic) issues, there is a discussion going on in the Pit.

The questions are, does this behavior bother you, under what circumstances, and short of creating new rules, how might we agree to deal with it?

9

  1. Yes. Being a guy, I rarely venture into these threads, and when I do, it’s usually just to see if someone has done this. They usually have.

  2. Somewhat, but only marginally. It’s to be expected in those kinds of discussions, but I still find it a little eye-rollingly annoying.

  3. I would support this, but I don’t see it actually working unless there is administrative intervention (which I am not advocating). It seems clear to me that this kind of behavior is low-level sexual harassment, but many either disagree or just don’t care.

10

Sorry, I wasn’t really thinking about this as a poll.

No those things don’t bother me.

And I can’t imagine ANY way to deal with it, outside of new rules, which I believe would be virtually impossible.

Actually I’ll take that back to the point of saying posters simply ignore offensive posts, as we theoretically “don’t feed the trolls”. But I would also point out that we have a very poor record of not feeding trolls. Trolls are very well fed around here.

11

If, every time someone did this, someone else (another poster, not a mod) said “that’s not cool/that’s not funny,” is it not possible that frequency would go down?

12

Sure, why not? We could use some more ill-thought out, impossible to define and even harder to enforce protocols of gentility that address non-existent problems around here. And while we’re at it, we could change the name of the board to “Sparing Delicate Maidenly Blushes”, too.

13

I think it would to some degree, but not appreciably. I’d expect more “Lighten up, Francis” or “It’s a free country!” responses than “I’m sorry I was a boor” type replies.

Really, I think this falls under the Don’t Be a Jerk rule but you see how many of those we have around.

14

It doesn’t bother me, in the sense that I find it inevitable signal-to-noise blather. When you try to have those types of discussions in a mixed-company, anonymous group, there’s just a certain about of juvenile BS that’s likely to make its way in. I don’t see the point of being bothered by something that is both minor and extremely difficult to solve. ISTM much easier for people with a modicum of maturity to ignore such nonsense than it would be for TPTB to try to police it.

No, AFAICT that’s sort of what those kinds of threads are about. But I wouldn’t really know, they’re not my thing.

We can deal with it by expecting people to pull up their big-girl panties/their big-boy briefs and get over it. Egregiously sexist behavior can be addressed by the mods and/or in the Pit – just as it is now.

IOW, I think this is a very few people identifying a “problem” that doesn’t really exist, and that is not in need of an “solution” beyond the expectations and policing of behavior that already exists.

I also think that given the late unpleasantness about modding and behavior standards, TPTB would be six kinds of nuts to want to assume the additional burden of policing behavior that is only perceived to be sexist by the most sensitive among us.

15

**1. Does it bother you when guys come into threads about “women-talk” (bras, PMS, mammograms) and make boob jokes?**No, unless someone made that sort of joke in a serious thread, perhaps about breast cancer or something. That would be covered by the “don’t be a jerk” rule though. The one or two people who feel driven to make that kind of joke aren’t adding anything to the discussion, but I can easily scroll on by.

2. Does it bother you when guys make “Cite?” or other similar jokes in response to a reference to breasts if that post is in an MPSIMS-type thread with much flirting, joking, and bantering? No. If there’s already flirting and banter, then that joke wouldn’t be out of place.

3. If there is agreement that this behavior is, in at least some cases, immature and/or obnoxious, how can we deal with this going forward? One suggestion is that we just all agree to flag such behavior with a “knock it off” and a link to this thread in the future. Are there other possible solutions? It seems like that solution would be more likely to drag the thread off course than ignoring the stupid joke and focusing on the discussion.

16

  1. Yes, it bothers me. A lot. To the extent that there are threads I have never started and information/advice I have never posted because I do not want that kind of remark directed at me. It’s bad enough to see it directed at other women.

  2. Yes, it bothers me, although not as much as #1. I don’t usually read that kind of thread anyway, but I think it’s both possible and preferable for people to flirt in other ways.

  3. I’m not sure. I think it would help if more people would say “Knock it off” when these kinds of remarks are posted, but only if the majority of Dopers agree that they are at the very least annoying and that we’d be better off without them. It should be possible to treat these jokes the same way we would treat other obnoxious, offensive jokes. But if a majority of Dopers see nothing wrong with such jokes then they’re going to be angry about a small faction going around saying “Stop”.

In threads asking for advice about clothing, medical issues, etc., then I think such remarks should be considered clear “don’t be a jerk” violations. Maybe instead of ignoring them in such cases then we should report them? I’ve never done this because it’s such a common occurrence that I figured there was no point, but maybe there is.

17

The best way to deal with any lame and immature behavior that is not blatantly intended to be offensive is just to ignore it. If the original complainant had done this there would be no issue. The world is full of boobs (of both kinds) and anyone who gets so het up every time they’re in evidence is going to have a short and anxiety-filled life.

Stranger

18

Not really, it’s to be expected. Typically everyone ignores them. Just like real life.

No, again, to be expected.

I think this solution is obnoxious, personally.

I’m not getting on any “panties in a twist” bandwagon.

If you don’t like having personal comments about your body, refrain from posting in those threads. Period.

If it was something like a poor comment in a breast cancer thread, well, it’d be a warning for being a jerk.

I am a woman, and I hate this whole “we need to be protected” idea. First I needed the SDMB to protect me from bad words, and now I need to be protected from mild flirtation? For the record, I can take care of myself, thanks.

That this is even brought up makes me sad.

19

  1. Depends on the thread. The one that started it all-no. It’s about a shirt that makes her “boobs look amazing”. That’s to be expected. Give a :rolleyes: or a :dubious: and get over it. PMS, or mamograms-THEN it’s tacky and downright assholish. (And anyone who talks about “cite!” with regards to masectomies and breast cancer and lumpectomies should be tarred and feathered.)

  2. Um, why would it? That’s the whole POINT of the thread. Especially since I’m one of the ones who’d probably say “cite?” if a guy mentioned being particularly “endowed.” :wink: That’s what a flirting thread is FOR. If you don’t like that, stay out.

  3. The first one? I’d say just deal with it on a case by case basis. Depends on the severity-link to this thread, or Pit them if it’s bad enough.
    (And I’d say it’s not just about boobs-I don’t think I’m the only one who gets tired of serious discussions de-railed into comments about my legs or my “old Catholic school girl skirts” or what have you. I don’t find it sexist so much as just annoying.)

20

Me personally, I’m not so much bothered as disappointed. This falls into the “don’t be a jerk” category of behavior, though I don’t know if I would feel comfortable advising enforcement for much the reasons fisha states.

Doesn’t bother me in the slightest–in this context, it’s effectively a more obviously sexual cliche to replace “how you doin’” and stuff of that ilk–and it seems to me that mention of breasts in an obviously flirting context signifies that the mentioner is actively soliciting such remarks in a way that is not true of case 1.

Frankly, I’m leery of exposing this place to more “rules”, especially as asking for mod action would likely lead to another annoyance-pile like the “buckeye” crap, so I like the suggestion that twickster makes, albeit modified by the attitude of the OP in whatever thread this discussion happens to take place–that is and for example, to the extent that I read them I would likely call out this behavior as inappropriate in a thread started by Lamia or Tracy Lords as a matter of it being their desire to not put up with that stuff, but by the same token, I wouldn’t say anything at all in a thread like the Doper NSFW Pic thread, which was pretty much expressly created for this kind of behavior.

My preferred recommendation is the same as the other thread–it’s a limited subset of posters who actually do this, and there’s an ignore feature for a reason.