Missed the edit window: My post above refers to the second version of the quote, which is a more accurate turnabout of TL’s original post. The entire second sentence is irrelevant detail to me and I wouldn’t have thought much about it.
Well, obviously, any woman who took that as an invitation to flirt with you would be justifying her behavior just like a rapist.
Yes, it’s so idiotic of me to point out that western women feigning ignorance of that fact are, in fact, fucking liars. Funny, of course, that you admit the point was valid, but can’t seem to spare a word for the two women lying up a storm by pretending that, gee whiz, they have no idea why a woman’s amazing tits would be any more sexual than a man’s pecs.
Doesn’t it bother you, even a little bit, that two western women are basing a large part of their argument on a claim that is so laughably, transparently dishonest that it is self-parody on their parts? “Durrrr, tits? Sexual? Never heard of such a thing.”
Do you think that the fact of breasts being as sexual as vaginas or penises is somehow arcane knowledge? It’s somehow reasonable to expect two grown, western women to be totally ignorant of that fact, because it’s so very arcane? You need to go to school and engage in rigorous study to realize that that “boobies” are viewed as sexual parts of a woman’s body in the west?
Or, are they feigning ignorance of blatantly obvious common knowledge?
What’s funny is you overlook two women deliberately trying to pretend that they’re unbelievably stupid in order to continue their outrage at male sexuality, and you focus on me, and my ‘idiocy’ of pointing out what they’re doing.
Of course, my other points were just as valid, but rather than even attempting to debunk them a good ol’ ad hominem fallacy works wonders, eh?
If you plan on playing straight, ask yourself why women who’d feign ignorance of something as simple as breasts being sexualized in western culture deserve the benefit of the doubt on other claims, like Ruby’s hillarious troll of "Tracy Lord never said, “I have awesome tits.” She simply said a shirt made her boobs look amazing. "
If Ruby is content to feign ignorance about whether or not breasts are treated any differently than a man’s pecs, why assume that she’s also innocently ‘confused’ and non-trollishly ‘mistaken’ as to why “my breasts look amazing in this shirt” is the same thing as saying “My tits are amazing [especially when shown off properly]”.
Or, ya know, you could just call me some more names and ignore my actual argument.
I wonder if this is Tracy’s most successful thread, going strictly by the number of replies, of course. If she was upset originally by a few mentions of her breasts, I doubt this firestorm will have made her feel any better.
Tracy Lord, if you are still around and have managed to get this far in the thread, I hope you’re well.
FinnAgain, maybe “she was asking for it” is the cliche excuse of an unrepentant rapist, but it’s used in a lot of other cases, too. How many times on Leave it to Beaver did Wally say “Eddie is really asking for it.” (Say what you want about the sordid underbelly of suburbia, but I’m almost sure he wasn’t referring to rape.) I think you were the first one in this thread to say that “asking for it” automatically implies “rape”. It doesn’t invalidate any other arguments, but you’re taking this one a little too far.
Don’t be dense. In this context (tits, and talking about them), the words “asking for it” and “she deserved it” absolutely have a negative connotation.
I never said it wasn’t negative. I just said that it doesn’t apply only to rapists.
I expect you will grant me the same courtesy you extend to TL below: that you can’t know for sure what my motive was, that you can’t KNOW what I really meant.
Below you said “We could play the quote hunting game all day, but that wouldn’t tell the rest of us what you’re really thinking.”
On more than one occasion in this thread I have posted the quote, link and post # of every post I made in the applicable 3 threads so I am not asking you to go quote hunting, it’s all there in my words. I will deal with my words, the words I chose to post, not my thought or beliefs or ideas.
Please notice that I did not make any post in which I suggested I knew what TL’s motives were or reasoning was, either positive or negative. I also have not commented on her user name and did not search for any of her prior posts. If you have an issue with those who did you, should take it up with them. I am not and will not take responsibility for anybody else’s words or words put in my mouth.
Look at my posts, only my posts.
There’s a difference between thinking something and having said/posted something, isn’t there?
Does it matter what I thought or does it matter what I said/posted?
I will stand by what I have said/posted.
You get to ask the question but not to frame my answer.
Does it matter what I think or believe? Some people would believe me, some people would not.
From an earlier post of mine in this thread (#197):
That was the extent of my posting in that thread, note that TL did not ask me to stop.
Yes I believe TL deserved to be called on for using one phrase in her OP and then changing her phrasing later downthread and in another thread.
A parallel would be if I said “my car is black” but later said “my car is gray”, it’s close but it’s not what I originally said.
It was in the Wow, our new hire is my dream guy thread that a conflict between TL and myself arose on the words I used/what I said.
I expect you will grant me the same courtesy you extend to TL: that you can’t know for sure what my motive was, that you can’t KNOW what I really meant. She asked me to stop and … I did, it was all over in the space of posts 11 to 15 which included Rhythmdvl fixing a link.
In retrospect, I could have chosen to post only the link to the Red wines stain post and left out the quote. Note my liberal use of smileys and well-wishes.
Also from an earlier post of mine in this thread (#197):
“In the Wow, our new hire is my dream guy thread it was a “Hey, I remember her” and connecting dreamy co-worker + very favorite white shirt = love connection. And in light of her prior conduct, I figured there might be fireworks.”
So I will admit to setting out the bait (using her words) but I didn’t make TL take it - adults, choice, responsibility & all that.
Those 2 posts in that 1 thread are the only time I first brought up her very favorite white shirt, in the other 2 threads her amazing boobs were already in play (so to speak).
There has been much said it the 4 threads (Women and “signals”, Red wine stains, Wow, our new hire is my dream guy and this one.
I will only be responsible for the posts I made using the words I chose.
As a trial attorney would say, “asked and answered.” This is not a single-sex audience of known individuals – this is an audience that numbers in the hundreds, not thousands, and is at least half male.
Which makes Tracy’s statement either naive as all hell or incredibly disingenuous. I’m willing to grant the former – but to say she had nothing at all to do with the reaction it provoked seems like the latter.
Men’s pecs aren’t an explicit sexual feature. Women’s breast are. That’s simply a fact of evolution. Take a look at other primates. None of them have breasts like human women. Nursing doesn’t require full breasts. Human female breasts exist solely to attract male sexual attention.
OK, so there is no male equivalent for women’s breasts. A man’s cock is not equivalent to a woman’s breasts. Women’s breasts can be sexual or non-sexual depending on context, which I think is the root of the debate here. Some folks are saying Tracy meant her comment to be sexual, while others, including Tracy are saying she didn’t. Why is it impossible to take her at her word? Is it so important to defend making comments about her boobs that she has to be turned into a lying, trolling attention whore to invalidate what she said so it’s OK to needle her?
I don’t know about where you live, but here, I see topless women in public, at places like Grassroots Festival, or at swimming holes, in parks, etc. It’s legal for a woman to go topless in public, and they do. People don’t lose their minds, no one throws money, etc. I don’t know what the men are thinking, but they do refrain from comment. It is possible. That’s my point. People in this thread who are saying that it has to be OK and acceptable to make lewd comments because that’s what men do… not giving men enough credit. Men, not giving themselves enough credit, or not wanting to have to self-censor. Tracy Lord should have self-censored, and so should the people who responded to her.
End of story… right?
It’s near enough for our purposes.
None of this is a context in which “breasts are non-sexual.”
It’s near enough for your purposes, obviously, but I am not going to agree that they’re equivalent, so I’m afraid we’re at an impasse.
If the person who possesses the breasts doesn’t want you to interact with them in a sexual way, isn’t that good enough for you? You can think whatever you want when you see them, but if you are not a complete asshole, you’ll refrain from comment or overt reaction. That’s my point. If you absolutely can’t control yourself, is that her fault, or is it your problem?
Huh? Where did you get such a novel idea? They may not be part of the female’s reproductive organs, but they are definitely included in what is commonly viewed as genitalia.
This is a very odd analogy. I can’t imagine any male saying such a thing, unless it was one of those shirts that has Spandex in it and shows every muscle ripple. Even then, it would be a bit odd.
I believe I also said that she may be naive or immature, but given her posting history, I think she’s more disingenuous than anything else. If “young women” say such stuff casually, then young women need to learn a bit more about the world. I have a daughter who is a young woman (19) and she would no more say something like that in mixed company than she would take off her white blouse. I cannot imagine her friends doing likewise–crazy college kids that they are. I highly doubt Tracy Lord is typical of all young women. I hope she is not, given that she appears to be narcissistic, self-involved and immature. What she got is a reality check that didn’t sit well with her, hence her leaving the board. She is destined for much offense in her life if she doesn’t come to realize that the general public is not her private display arena.
I don’t think she’ll do that. She’s chosen her role and it is Indignant Victim. Good luck to her. Staying here and working it out would have been more admirable. Perhaps we’ll have the pleasure of Tracy, Still Hurt but Valiant Returner to the Boards: Bloodied but Unbowed soon.
This has to be a non sequitur. Men are different than women. I don’t always approve of what turns them on or even like it very much. But I do not expect them to react the way I do. Could the 2 posters handled this differently? Absolutely. But** Tracy Lord** could have as well. There is no blameless victim here.
My bottom line is this: the guys who think “cite” etc are good ways to get to know women better/enter into the discussion in breast threads should know that they’re really not good ways at all. (and this completely ignores the good natured ribbing that goes on between posters who have known one another for yonks). Female posters who are offended by such behavior should express their disdain politely–and the male poster should heed that. But what about the female posters who seem to enjoy this type of thing? They exist–what do we do about them?
And all this has about as much chance of working, (on a huge anonymous message board), as herding kittens. There will always be at least ONE male poster who wants to tease or be a dick or whatever. There will always be at least one female poster who will (in the words of the Master) find something suggestive in a dial tone.
What to do? Is this something we want moderated? Given the current climate, I’d say you have a chance at achieving that. But isn’t that sexist as hell? Protecting the poor defenseless little women against the big, bad men?
Do you see how this could go?
This is not about me. Breasts are sexual. Talking about breasts in mixed company is sexual conversation. I am not interested in addressing the other points.
Ruby–I don’t think anyone is saying that since men (upon occasion) make lewd comments that it is acceptable to always do so. I think they’re saying that you cannot have the expectation that NO man will say something. Doing so is putting your expectations and values onto them–I think this is what is making Finn so vehement.** Tracy** did ask them to stop, but cried sexist! when they didn’t. It’s not a sexist thing. If anything, it’s an etiquette thing.
Breasts are sexual to you. To me, they’re just a part of my body that other people consider sexual but most of them time are just a pain in the neck, literally. If I talk about them, I might talk about them sexually or non-sexually. How you interpret what I say is the point of contention here. The speaker implies, the listener infers. A lot of people inferred meaning into what Tracy said that she swears she wasn’t implying. Thus, it becomes all about calling her a liar and other names to bring her motivations in line with theirs so that she did mean it sexually, and thus brought the comments on herself.
Saying “any mention of breasts is sexual” is more than a little simplistic. Wouldn’t it be easier just to say, “Well, Tracy, this is what we thought you were saying. Be more careful next time, because you’re coming off differently from how you meant.” Instead of what did happen, which I think was pretty ugly.
eleanor: I don’t know what’s making Finn so vehement, because he has twisted everything I have said and resorted to virulent ad hominem attacks instead of talking to me like a human being, so please, don’t try to justify his response to me. Others have made arguments I’ve disagreed with without making it impossible to converse with them. It would be nice if men didn’t feel the need to make comments in any breast-related thread, including those about bras. If asked to stop, it would be nice if they did without blaming the woman for mentioning breasts in the first place. No one is arguing the sexist thing anymore, though sexist things, like “Cocktease” have been said subsequently to muddy the waters.
I’m not trying to justify anything. I gave my take on things.
I don’t think “I’d like to see a photo of your breasts in that shirt that makes them look amazing” is G-rated. I would consider that an inappropriate remark from a friend, and a VERY inappropriate remark from a stranger.
It’s not as extreme as “I’d like to see a photo of your amazing bare breasts”, but still inappropriate. Given the number of people in this thread who have characterized Tracy’s original remark as bragging about her great rack, I have no confidence that Koxinga’s remark meant he wanted to see a photo of Tracy in the shirt. WormTheRed did specify that he meant with the shirt, but he also apologized quite nicely when Tracy took offense. She immediately accepted the apology so I don’t think this thread was directed at him.
But Tracy didn’t say anything about her bared breasts. This looks like trying to have it both ways to me – the remarks Tracy got were pretty tame because they were about her clothed breasts, but Tracy’s original comment was just as sexually suggestive as a description of her vulva would have been because bare breasts are considered highly sexual in our culture.
What were we meant to understand people would be doing with the requested photos of Tracy’s breasts anyway? Clothed or unclothed, wouldn’t the only reason for wanting such an image be to add it to the spank bank? Sure, they were joking, but the remarks don’t even work as jokes without the understanding that such photos would typically be looked at while the recipient was masturbating. What makes such a request “funny” is its very inappropriateness.
Granted, a portion of the humor in such remarks also comes from the use of the familiar SDMB “Cite?” request in an unexpected context. (Well, it was unexpected the first time. There’s nothing novel about it anymore.) This “cite for something that wouldn’t normally need to be cited” humor is used in other contexts here, perhaps most commonly when people mention their pets. But when someone says “Cite? I’ll need to see a pic!” about another poster’s new kitten, it’s the phrasing that’s a joke. The request is serious – people really want to see pictures of the kittens and hope that the other person will post some. But if the guys who make “Provide a cite by posting photos of your breasts!” posts are joking only in their choice of phrasing but actually mean that the woman should really post photos of her breasts then the remarks are even more offensive than I previously thought.
I don’t believe that’s the case, though. I don’t even think that most people who make these jokes give them much thought, they’re just imitating others without considering the connotations of the joke. But I think it would be nice if people would consider such things a bit more, and decide whether they really want to make a joke that’s basically saying “Hey, I’d like to look at a photo of you while I jerk off!” I would hope that most people would upon consideration realize that such a joke is inappropriate and sleazy.
I meant that asking a friend to send me a photo of her breasts, clad in some sexy outfit, was inappropriate. Hell, even if I were flirting with someone I’d come up with something less creepy to say. That’s not the kind of thing you should say to anyone you aren’t already intimately involved with. Asking for a photo of naked breasts would be even more inappropriate, but it’s a difference of degree not kind.
I don’t think even Tracy said that her comment had *nothing *to do with the reaction. The question isn’t whether they were related but whether the reaction was appropriate or should be considered acceptable here.
It would be a lot less odd than a man mentioning how his favorite trousers show off his penis, which is the analogy others have proposed.
*If it helps, I’m queer. I figured most Dopers who cared knew that already, but maybe not. I don’t usually like to mention it because I don’t want to be asked for photos, but I guess it’s relevant here. If I can take “that shirt makes my boobs look amazing” as nothing but a description of a shirt then I don’t see why a straight man can’t do the same.
*If some guys get aroused by the very word “boobs” then that’s their business, but they don’t need to type out a request for a visual aid. Not even as a joke. People don’t have much control over what turns them on, but they have a lot of control over what they say about it.
*I specifically said I thought self-censorship would be preferable to more heavy moderation. Honestly I would not object to a rule against “Post pictures of your sexy body” and “I’m masturbating to your post” comments, but I think such a rule would cause other problems and so is probably not a great idea.
I don’t see anything sexist about a rule like that though. It would also protect poor defenseless little men against the big bad women who ask them to post photos of their dicks. Several posters in this thread have suggested that women would make similar leering remarks if a man talked about his cute butt or big penis. Although I can’t remember ever seeing such a post, there’s no reason to treat them any differently. It would be just as inappropriate for a woman to ask a man to post photos of his hot bod as it is when the genders are reversed (or any other gender combination, for that matter).
But the trouser equivalency is more apt because female Dopers have posted re some guy’s package.
Hmm. Perhaps it’s because you’re gay that you don’t understand the hetero point of view? 
Boobs don’t do it for you, so you wouldn’t read the sexual subtext present. Right? Plus, I’m a straight female and I read it as a (minor) come on as well.
True enough. I agree that the posting for “cite” etc is uncalled for and tiresome. My point is that it’s not going to go away altogether, ever. It’s unrealistic to expect it to.
In all my years here, I have NEVER read a post where a man has stated he is jerking off to a pic of a female Doper. I have read ones where such activity is referred to as a joke, nothing more. (If I had ever read such a post, I would no longer be here–regardless of whatever it is that people do at home while online. Please leave me in ignorance; thanks.) Personally, I’d like to see a whole lot more self-censorship online, but that ship sailed long ago.
I agree, but TL’s demeanor and reaction of “sexist!” belies this simple premise. She acted very much the injured innocent–which given her posting history is too much to take, IMO.
What I take away from this thread is that we have been (however inadvertently) given a glimpse of something much deeper and more profound than the hurt sensibilities of a silly young woman. There is something at work here, something important to all parties. I cannot articulate it well, but I don’t think anyone in this thread is being provocative out of malice or even just trolling. Whether it’s the lack of true communication between men and women or a generational thing, all complicated by the anonymity of a message board, I don’t know. I sense hurt on all sides and anger as well. I have no idea what to do about it.
Isn’t Lamia a woman? So boobs do, in fact, do it for her, and she’s uniquely qualified to comment, as a person who both has boobs and is into them.