When/why/how did attitudes towards rape victims change?

Great Debates
1

Okay, so I was talking to my sister tonight, and she just this week finished reading The Women’s Room. One thing she wanted to discuss was a disturbing sequence late in the story, when a college student is raped by a stranger. Not just the assault, but the secondary assault, when she was in court, being interrogated as if she was the one who did a crime. And of course, the rapist’s public defender claimed that his client said it was consensual. (Not in the street, said the victim’s mother.) “Yeah, I’ve read other books where that happens,” said I.

Two other teenage female characters in the 1970s had to deal with that nonsense: Gail, in Are You In the House Alone? by Richard Peck, and Jaret, in Happy Endings Are All Alike by Sandra Scoppettone. Both of them are stalked by their rapists, although Jaret doesn’t know it until too late. Gail’s stalker keeps her on edge with hang-up calls and threatening notes. Both sustain injuries. Gail is knocked out by a fireplace poker before the act; Jaret gets a broken nose and split lip, plus cracked ribs, and a knockout punch at the end. Both of them are in a hospital room when a police officer comes in, supposedly to get a statement, but really to interrogate and intimidate her.

And both officers try to reframe the incident as something else. Gail says “I’d been getting phone calls, notes…I was scared because someone was trying to scare me.” This is translated by Officer Sleazebag as “You and him talk on the phone – keep in touch.” He then paints a story of consensual makeout session that gets out of hand, and ends with “[L]et’s be honest…what you both want to do, but you’re a nice girl, and you don’t give in that easy. So maybe there’s some rough stuff…now you got this nasty bump on the head [uh, a concussion!]…so you kind of build up a story around it.” Jaret’s interrogator creates the same kind of fantasy, and when her parents object, he threatens to have them removed, and adds, “If she’s innocent, there’s nothing to worry about.” And in both cases, the story they made up was still rape. But date rape didn’t exist as a concept back then.

So after I got done telling Sis all this, and after she got done ugh-ing and argh-ing, she had an anecdote to share. When her son was 21 or so, he was mugged. Someone demanded his wallet; they had no visible weapon, but announced their willingness to beat the crap out of him. Well, he didn’t want to take a chance on fighting the guy (hospital bills, maybe hurt too bad to work), but he was afraid that meekly handing over the wallet would lead to “Gimme your car keys too.” So he said, “Can you just take the cash?” And the guy agreed, maybe because that was easier. So my nephew lost about fifty bucks but kept his teeth and his car.

Sis: “And nobody said ‘Why did you cooperate with him?’ They all said ‘That was smart!’…What’s my point? Well, how do you think those cops would have reacted if it had been a boy with those injuries? If it wasn’t rape, just a beating and robbery, but he was still hurt that bad, would they think he’d brought it on himself?”

Me: “I think I get it. Once those guys heard ‘rape’, they shut down. Blinded themselves to any evidence, because they just didn’t want to believe it.”

Sis: “Maybe because they’d have to look at themselves, when they were that age. Anyway, thank Christ it’s not like that today. I hope, anyway…”

Also, not to make this post longer, but now I’m thinking of a couple of advice-to-teenagers books, also from the turn of the 1970s, that warned girls about “giving up a lot of sex” and finding their reputations in tatters. “Don’t say there’s nothing you can do to stop him,” says one, suggesting a “firm no…a slap across the face as a last resort.” Another has a quote from some random teen guy, who stated, “The automatic pass is a test. If a girl…flunks on the second date, there’s no way I’m bringing her home to meet my mother.” Makes me wonder how many rapes went unreported back then.

So, I guess my point is, I’m glad things have changed – No Means No, rape shield laws, and of course, MeToo. But I still wonder about that old mindset, especially since there are bound to be some (I hope not many) people who still think that way. I’m just trying to figure out their logic, if only so I’ll know how faulty it is.

2

I don’t think it has changed in Great Britain:

3

Yeah, speaking as someone who works in this field, that is, at a nonprofit providing various services to survivors of intimate partner violence and sexual assault, I really don’t think a lot has changed.

I’m open to evidence indicating otherwise, but we’re still doing this work. There’s still a demand for it we cannot meet. There are still advocates who have to hold victims’ hands and tell them the statistical unlikelihood of ever seeing justice. Now agencies like mine that provide prevention education are being targeted by parents’ rights groups who don’t want their children to learn how to have healthy relationships or treat women with respect. Then there was the corporate sponsor who only said they’d donate to us as long as we weren’t part of that #metoo movement. A ridiculous percentage of teen girls are reporting sexual assault. Rape and rape culture aren’t going away.

Sorry.

4

The, based on a true story, miniseries Unbelievable looks at both sides of this very topic.

The police in Washington “hounded [her] into recanting her report. After she was charged with making a false police report, she accepted a plea deal that resulted in a $500 payment for court fees.”, however, “The Colorado detectives on her case eventually arrested serial rapist”

5

No, I know there’s a long way to go yet, and that some people don’t even want to get there. Still, there are advocates, and they do hold victims’ hands, so to speak?. I mean, unless I’m way misinformed, nowadays a victim gets to give a statement, most likely to a female officer, or at least to a man who listens instead of interrogating her* about “What were you wearing?..Oh, you knew the guy?..Were you a virgin before this?” And they wouldn’t call her “honey” or “kid” or anything except her name. There is, or is supposed to be, more sensitivity towards victims, and fewer excuses for the rapist. Have we come that far, at least?

ETA: Joey_P: Yeah, that’s in my watchlist. I’ll get to it when I think I can handle it.

*I mean, I know these were fictional examples, and I don’t know what, if any, IRL examples the authors might have been following. But in both cases, the officer, right out of the gate, took the attitude of “Okay, let’s get to the bottom of this. Why do you think you’ve been raped, and why are you trying to get this fine young man in trouble?” And I can see that happening, especially in a small community. People would rather believe that a crazy girl made a wild accusation, than that a maladjusted boy committed assault and rape, because the first is easier to dismiss.

6

…I mean: this still happens. It hasn’t gone away. And considering the global shift towards “the right” and a rejection of so-called “woke values”, we are likely to see more of this happening, not less.

This is a constant, never-ending fight. Attitudes really haven’t changed, and it’s a mistake to think its all over. There just tends to be a bit more oversight now. Sometimes. Which means that cop who isn’t saying out loud “Were you a virgin before this” is still thinking that, and will treat the victim accordingly.

7

In all fairness, I think we’ve moved the needle a bit. I think there are fewer misogynists today than there used to be, or at the very least, there are more people strongly pushing back on misogyny than there used to be. This includes myths about rape victims. I also think many men feel less “safe” harassing and assaulting women so it has a chilling effect on their behavior. So there has been some change in cultural attitudes, in my perception. The scumbags are still scumbags, but there are more people who refuse to be neutral. don’t know of any specific research to back that up, though.

8

I think we’ve moved the needle a bit. And I think part of that is that it’s now okay for girls to say “yes”. And that makes it more plausible that when they say “no” they actually mean “no”, and aren’t just playing a game. I think “nice girls always say no” is incredibly toxic.

9

I took a human sexuality class in undergrad in probably 1991 or 92 where the professor would frequently bring this up. His point was something like, if women say no when they really mean yes, then they are training men that no sometimes means yes, so don’t accept no as an answer. If I remember correctly, many in the class agreed this “no means yes” was behavior they participated in.

10

Okay, bear with me on this. When I was in college, I was told a cautionary tale. This would have happened before I got there in 1988, but not too long before, so early to mid-1980s. What I was told was, a girl said no, meant no, but the guy wouldn’t accept it. I think penetration did not end up happening, but it was upsetting. And there was a roommate who heard/saw some of this. Now, the girl wasn’t even trying to press charges (I was told); she only wanted her schedule changed so she wouldn’t have classes with this guy. She was told to come to the dean’s office, and when she got there, the guy was waiting, along with some other faculty. “C’mon, you know this didn’t happen. Take it back and stop trying to hurt this guy’s reputation.” And apparently she backed down and kept the same schedule, rather than being labeled a troublemaker.

That’s what I was told, but I didn’t find it hard to believe. Unfortunately, I’d forgotten about it by the following spring, when my roommate was raped. I’m not going into details. I believed her. There was no reason not to, and some good reasons why I should have. Point is, the following morning, she told me she didn’t want to press charges, and brushed off what I thought were some good reasons she should have. When the same friend who had come to her aid the night before came by to check on her, I left them and went to ask some older girls what I should do – try some more to convince her, or report it myself?

They all recommended reporting it myself, to one of several faculty who lived on campus. And I’m here to tell you, walking up to the door, knocking, saying “My roommate was raped last night,” was the easy part. What followed was at least an hour of Professor Z, with his wife kind of in the background, basically trying to discredit the entire story. I mean, I get that to them it was a secondhand account. But the response I had expected was, “Okay, let’s go talk to her,” not endless variations on “Are you sure?”

A few things finally tipped the balance. First was Professor Q coming in, saying that some girls had reported an assault…When those three didn’t hear back from me, they thought I might have chickened out, so they went to his apartment. Another was my breaking down in tears and saying “If you saw her last night…” But the third was that she had been a virgin, prior to this. I’ll never forget Prof. Z saying “Well, in today’s society, if a young woman is still a virgin at 19, she must have put some effort into maintaining that status.” Of course, I didn’t dare say, “So what – if she wasn’t a virgin before, she’d be just another slut?”

And, getting back to that original anecdote. Somewhere in this, Prof. Z said to the effect of, “We’ve only had one of these things since I’ve been here…but I think that was just a case of the girl being delusional.” Again, not the time to get into that, but I so badly wanted to ask, “Uh, okay, but before she reported ‘one of these things’, did she strike you or anyone else as being unstable?” And I never got a chance to ask anyone who might have known her, but I think there’s a strong possibility that the young woman was entirely credible. But, y’know, it’s crazy to think that any of the white, wealthy, well-connected fine young men on that campus could commit sexual assault. One woman says one of them did, so, she must be crazy!

Anyway, yeah. Mrs. Z took Roommate to a hospital, she got a rape kit, didn’t drop out of school, which was my worry, was okay the last time I talked to her. But I’m pretty sure there were no consequences for the rapists. Yes, that’s plural. Hey, if TabulaRasa is still around…She was not at all involved in this, but I know she heard the same talk everyone else did.

Whew. That took a lot out of me. And I wondered then and I wonder now, would they have been as stubborn if I had been the actual victim? Would I still have had to defend myself and my account? Were they (Prof Z and his wife) hoping I would just say, “You know what, never mind, I’m sorry”? Dunno. Not sure I want to.

11

I don’t think there are fewer misogynists today. I think there are more because now they have instant access to a worldwide support system.

12

At a library book sale a few years back, I stumbled on a paperback published in the 1930s about how to meet women. I thumbed through it and it was clearly written with humor in mind rather than an actual guide to interacting with women. But at the beginning of the book it had a quote, “When dealing with the fairer sex, real he-men eschew seduction and go straight to rape.” This was supposed to be a comedy.

It’s the basis of everyone’s favorite holiday song, “Baby It’s Cold Outside.” The woman wants to stay, the man wants her to stay, but she has to feign putting up a fight because “nice girls” don’t do what she wants to do. I feel as though women are still put into that position though perhaps not so much as they were in the 40s.

13

I think teenage girls are especially put in this position because most of a young woman’s social life is online and it is very easy to be ruthlessly and publicly labeled a slut.

I suspect this is one of many factors going into the sudden surge of anxiety, suicidality and self-harming among teenage girls. Boys have also been impacted but to a lesser extent. So there are some things going on specific to being a girl.

14

Reminds me of this.

Yale banned DKE from campus for five years in 2011 after videos circulated of fraternity recruits chanting ‘No means yes, yes means anal’ in front of the University’s Women’s Center.

15

Oh man, Kavanaugh and all the public victim blaming ruined my year. I almost quit my job. Let me be clear: I believe he’s guilty, but what I find most disturbing isn’t the refusal to believe he’s guilty (an actual serious inquiry might have shed some light on that.) It’s the fact that the reasons people state they believe he’s innocent is some of the most disgusting, backward, ignorant shit about rape and rape victims you ever heard. And you see it come up time and again every time anyone is publicly accused of sexual assault.

16

Yep. I agree.

17

What a harrowing story. There isn’t a lot of people who would put themselves out there for a victim like that - believe me, I know. But yes, rape victims have often been treated like an inconvenience at best. You saved your friend the trauma of having to face that herself.

I’ve told this story a million times before but I got a rude awakening after disclosing abuse to a counselor at age 17. The perpetrator was my adoptive father. I was a legally emancipated minor not living with him at the time. The counselor assured me I had full confidentiality so I told it all. Not long after I get a call from counselor stating she was wrong, because he had other children she had to report it. Now I’m in a race to tell my family before the bomb drops.

Told my Aunt, who I was living with. She believed me completely.

She encouraged me to tell my grandmother. My grandmother said it was all my fault and I should have known better.

Now the hard part. I called my Mom. I tried to get her to meet me but we were not on good terms. I started crying. My mom guessed on the second try what was wrong with me. She said it didn’t matter whether she believed me or not. She wanted details. She wanted me to say it was all a big misunderstanding.

My Aunt’s boyfriend was present for my Aunt’s moral support. After that humiliating ordeal, he told my Aunt he never wanted to be alone with me again, you know, in case I accuse him of something.

My friends? Could not hack it. Most of them stopped hanging out with me because I was a real bummer to be around.

A few days later my Mom calls me up screaming at me for social services investigating my abuser’s children, tells me what happened was all my fault, she blames me, and according to my brother and sisters’ mother I was never allowed to see them again. And I never did.

While I’m wallowing at home in depression, a young man knocks on my door. He is not much older than me. He is a police officer coming to ask me questions. I had no knowledge of the law at that time. I tried to answer his questions though he was clearly uncomfortable with the whole thing. I asked him if I had to talk about it, and he said no I didn’t have to file a police report. I didn’t even realize I was in the process of filling a police report. I know I had no physical evidence and very little support, so no thank you. Besides, I wasn’t even raped as far as I remember. But until I left home, rape had felt like an inevitability to me. He had been trying to get my Mom institutionalized so he could get full custody.

From my family, there would be more questions, interrogations, skepticism. My reputation for being honest and moral prior to this experience was not relevant. I was clearly just trying to get back at my mother.

In the ensuing years I was pressured into resuming a relationship with him, which I did, to my own detriment. I would be hospitalized for suicidal ideation and diagnosed with PTSD. I would be told by an ER physician, while in hospital, at age 19, that I really need to let seven years of childhood sexual abuse go and get on with my life. My mother would attempt to gain power of attorney over me and tried to convince my therapists I was psychotic. She failed. At 23 I told my mother I wasn’t going to have a relationship with her as long as she was married to him because she kept pushing my boundaries. I cut off things with him for good and he’s dead for all I know.

Decades later my mother admitted to my Aunt she knew all along, and made it clear during that conversation and texts with my husband that she viewed me, her eleven year old daughter, as complicit. I always felt like I had been treated like the other woman in a love triangle, but that sounds crazy, right? Well now I have evidence that my perception was correct.

I am now 40. My life continues to be impacted by this event in ways I’m not getting into here. But I just think, if I had been in a supportive environment, with people who took me seriously, I wouldn’t be as messed up about the actual abuse. But the abuse as it was occurred in a highly unstable home environment.

I find it difficult to get close to people especially on this subject. It’s easier for me to be open on the Internet I guess. Many people are skeptical of my story because they don’t want to believe that life can be really that unfair. I had a dim view of human nature for a long time, though that improved when I got into social work and realized I’m not special and there are big systemic reasons this stuff happens to people.

This stuff still happens today. I have heard stories at work that will haunt me for life. Does it happen as frequently? I don’t know. But as long as it’s happening, I’m going to keep working on it.

18

I appreciate how hard re-telling this story might be. I’m just chiming in to recognize your courage, empathize with your pain, and support your recovery. And to say, I’m not skeptical one bit. I do think there is almost certainly someone reading accounts like yours who will see familiar traps and disappointments, and find their own courage to take steps to save themselves. So, thank you.

19

I really appreciate that. This stuff is all bubbling to the surface this week. I think it gets harder in the Fall because most of that went down in the Fall.

But I have good therapy and I feel more equipped to deal with it than I used to.

I just don’t want other people to feel like they are alone in this. Not everyone feels right about sharing their own experiences, but there are so many people with similar stories.

20

Dang, Spice_Weasel. You know, just to inject a tiny bit of humor, I think a Simpsons quote is appropriate. “You’re a like a beautiful flower that grew out of a pot of dirt.” Not cool when Hugh said it to Lisa, but in this context, I think it’s perfectly fair.

You know, we have got to uproot whatever it is that makes people not believe women and girls. Got to redirect the thinking that makes people ask, “Well, what did you do to cause this?” or “What makes you tell these horrible lies?” That has to stop, and I hope warning against it is part of any relevant training.

I know, right? I mean, you must have done something wrong…/s