When will blacks let the past go?

Great Debates
221

The bigger flaw in what December says is a seeming unfamiliarity with how high school students, and their teachers, are taught. High school teachers, in most cases, teach one subject. I, for example, am not currently teaching, but I do have a degree in English-Teaching that I’ll put to use one day. I took 14 classes of “general studies” which are classes required to be taken by everyone who is studying for a LA degree. These classes include a math, 3 sciences, a Language, History and so on. The vast majority of the classes I took were English classes. If you’d like me to teach children Shakespeare or critical theory, I’d probably do just fine. However, I would never attempt to teach them calculus or science, since my education would not qualify me to do so. Were one to be qualified for teaching all three (or four if you wish to separate physics from chemistry) at a high school level, they would have to take classes until they earned what would be the equivalent of three BA degrees, minimum.

More fair would have been to ask Mr. O, who mentioned grammar (thus making me conclude certification is in English), how much of his curriculum for inner city youths included Shakespeare, since it would be more realistic to expect he’d teach an advanced subject within the discipline he is certified for.

222

I dissagree, but even if it were true why should that matter? You don’t run 75% of a race then tell everyone to stop because you ran most of the race.

223

Well, ya got me there, december. I don’t teach nuclear physics, so I must be a bad person. [MrO hangs his head in shame.]

Actually, my education is in English and History. It prepared me mostly for teaching university-level composition, and I’m certified to teach English and History in secondary schools, if any of this matters. These days I live in Korea, and I’m an assistant professor in a Korean university. None of my current students are black. Does this mean I’m doing nothing to reduce racism?

Believe it or not, Korean students also have racial issues to deal with, especially the ones who will be interacting with foreigners. Do you really think that helping people, any people, to open their minds and think critically is a waste of time? Do you really think that teaching black students how to make nuclear power plants is the only way to help the situation?

Maybe I’m misguided, but I believe that reducing prejudice anywhere reduces prejudice in society as a whole. I admit it’s a little idealistic; I don’t expect to solve all the world’s problems. But we all have some impact, and I want mine to be against discrimination and in favor of equality.

One problem is that too many people are too comfortable with looking at racism. It still makes me very uncomfortable. Yes, you and your family have faced some challenges. My family and I have as well. And those challenges would have been a lot tougher if we had been black.

Again, if you want to know when black people will let go of the past, ask black people. And listen to their answers.

224

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Biggirl *
**

I was turned down when I applied for my first mortgage 30 years ago – probably because I was tipsy when I met the loan officer. Fortunately two other banks did offer a mortgage and I was able to buy the house.

Today there are hundreds or thousands of lending institutions competing to provide home mortgages. Some are run by minorities. Some are on the web, so (I assume) no personal visit is involved. These institutions exist to lend money, to earn interest, and to avoid default.

No doubt some lender are bigoted, but there are plenty of others to choose from.

I find it difficult to believe that “…banks use methods to purposely cause high default rates in minority neighborhoods.” Defaults cost banks money. It would be against a banker’s own selfish interest to cause a default.

225

Hard to believe that this sort of thing happens in this day and age, ain’t it december? I guess that’s why bab, jamesblan and “90% of white people” think that blacks are nothing but crybaby pretend-victims.

I’ve already posted this link in this very thread, but I see it needs repeating.
http://www.chicagoreporter.com/1993/05-93/0593MortgageLendinginChicagoSeparateUnequal.htm

And a few others for a larger picture.
http://www.responsiblelending.org/civrights.htm
http://www.house.gov/financialservices/51398pr.htm

226

Thanks for the cites, Biggirl. In your first cite was this quote:

Perhaps the first paragraph above was the source for writing that, “…banks use methods to purposely cause high default rates in minority neighborhoods.” If so, I question whether it says that much.

The complaint in the second paragrpah above seems to be that the FHA makes too many loans to non-creditworthy Blacks. That seems to contradict the complaint that lenders discriminate against Blacks by not making enough loans to them.

227

Yes, and the banks did it purposely, to create defaults. What have you to say about the other links?
To lend money to bad risk lenders and then turn around and say “Look, blacks are bad risks, see the default rates?” Is the the sneaky and very harmful way racism works today.

Do you think I advocate giving loans to bad risk blacks? Hell no! Pay your bills and stop making me look bad. But now you, december and BBB and every other American can look at me and assume that I’m a bad credit risk.

228

Actually december I would think it fits in well with the complaint. If the lenders already discriminate then they are going to continue to discriminate when they do give loans. If they only give loans which they think the people will default on then its in effect giving out less loans than the already small amount.

229

I don’t get this. I can easily imagine a racist banker unfairly denying credit to a minority borrower. He’d be acting against his own self-interest, but not intentionally so; his bias would have blinded him to the advantage of doing business with that customer.

But, I’m baffled as to how a banker would gain by purposely lending money to someone who wasn’t going to pay him back.

230

That’s easy. Lend money to someone who is stretched, calling for as much up front money as possible. They struggle for a few months, then default. The lender closes as quickly as possible (much more quickly than on the suburban home owner who is given more slack), then turns around and repeats the process, again demanding more up front money than would normally be justified by such a loan.

Rather than tying up the bank’s money in a long loan, simply grab extra points every 10 to 18 months.

Do I beleive that every bank acts this way? No. However, your question was “How?”

231

To clarify Tomndebb’s point. If the FHA guarantees the loan, the banks have nothing to lose. They get the initial upfront money, get back their investment money, and another black person goes into the statistics as a bad credit risk

232

Thank you, archmichael and Tomndebb. Now I see. Lenders and agents are gaming a loan guarantee system, which was designed to make mortgages more widely available, to the detriment of certain poor lenders. These defaults must be costing the taxpayer plenty. Come to think of it, the Student Loan program has had similar complaints. And, government deposit guarantees cost the taxpayers $ trillions in the S&L scandal. In that case, too, the loss was go great because slick operators had found a way to game the system.

Speaking as an actuary, I don’t like government loan guarantees. It’s all too easy for politicians to promulgate imprudent loan guarantees, since their supposed cost is zero. Later, when the bill comes due, it’s contractual, so no politician has to take responsibility.

Biggirl asked,

I’m not knowledgable enough about banking to judge the other links. The situation appears most unfair to borrowers, taxpayers, and honoroable lenders. It would be politically difficult to make the FHA less gererous or more demanding in their mortgage requirements. Perhaps the links’ recommended reforms would fix the problems. More consumer education might help. This looks like a cause worth pursuing.

233

interesting** december ** you now see the point that was being made (an institutionally created effect - specifically lending $$ to poor risk blacks to create the impression that blacks would default more often and therefore be poor risks), but miss the ‘point’ - and instead focus on how bad this is to taxpayers etc. The point was being made to help understand how:

  1. racism still exists today
  2. that it sets up false impressions to continually ‘give credit’ to the idea that one race somehow is inherently less intelligent, less trustworthy, more criminal, more spendtrifty etc. all of which in turn perpetuates the effects of racism.
  3. that to simply dismiss institutionally sanctioned and created things such as this, it is absolutely necessary to remain vigilent and not either ‘let the past go’ or as you were suggesting ‘focus on all the strides made’.

simply amazing.

234

Given his attempts to prove at all costs that I’m a “racial McCarthyist,” are you really surprised that he’d find some way to miss the entire point of Biggirl’s argument?

-Ben

235

NO! The point of “specifically lending $$ to poor risk blacks” (and poor risk Whites and poor risk Asians and poor risk American Indians) is TO MAKE MONEY. These sleazy bankers and sleazy mortgage agents are happy to make bad loans, since the FHA guarantee gives them a guaranteed profit.

Business men and business women work for PROFIT. They don’t get paid to create an impression that blacks would default more often. It’s not in their selfish interest to do so.

236

Don’t mean to be ganging up on you, december, but you seem to have abandoned the discussion about education. In my most recent post, I asked some questions which, though worded a bit sarcastically, were not entirely rhetorical. Is there no value, in the war against inequality, in educating the non-victims? Do you believe that only “advanced calculus, Shakespeare, nuclear physics, and organic chemistry” figure in the fight against racism? Do you see no value in teaching non-blacks to better understand the black situation?

Incidentally, there’s another point that you seem to have missed about the mortgage issue. You concede that some lenders are bigoted, but insist that “there are plenty of others to choose from.” But having others to choose from is not the same as having all of them to choose from.

If I have more choices available, I’ll choose to do business with the lender who offers better terms, less exploitative conditions. If I have fewer choices, maybe I’ll go to the loan shark. Which group would you rather be in?

237

About this: it is fine to remember that not all of those who oppress blacks do so intentionally and by design. The “evil white conspiracy” is not that well organized. But when our actions impact others, we are ethically responsible for those actions. It is not enough that we don’t intend our actions to hurt others. We must, if we wish to be good people, consider the unintended consequences of our actions as well.

It is no excuse that the primary motivation was greed, not racism. It still doesn’t support the claim that blacks should let go of the past.

238

*Originally posted by MrO *
In my most recent post, I asked some questions which, though worded a bit sarcastically, were not entirely rhetorical. Is there no value, in the war against inequality, in educating the non-victims? Do you believe that only “advanced calculus, Shakespeare, nuclear physics, and organic chemistry” figure in the fight against racism? Do you see no value in teaching non-blacks to better understand the black situation?

As I’m sure you know, the mention of those four subjects was a figure of speech representing top-notch, advanced education in general. (Is there an English Teacher who can remind us what it’s called? I think it’s synecdoche.)

I see value in teaching all races about the problems that Blacks have encountered in the past. I see more harm than benefit for focusing too much on it.

When people excel, there’s no need to bring up the past. Nobody needs to look at past injustice to appreciate the clarity of a David Blackwell or a Thomas Sowell, the artistry of Duke Ellington, the athletic excellence of Tiger Woods. Their achievement speaks for itself.

So, yes, I think the most important step is for minorities to receive outstanding education. Tragically, too many of them are getting just the opposite. This is so wrong, it makes me very upset. And, I’m afraid that to overly inflate current problems reduces the emphasis on doing everything possible to improve education. I acknowledge that reasonable people disagree on this last point.

**Incidentally, there’s another point that you seem to have missed about the mortgage issue. You concede that some lenders are bigoted, but insist that “there are plenty of others to choose from.” But having others to choose from is not the same as having all of them to choose from.

If I have more choices available, I’ll choose to do business with the lender who offers better terms, less exploitative conditions. If I have fewer choices, maybe I’ll go to the loan shark. Which group would you rather be in?
**
OK, but what’s your point?

239

Yes, synecdoche is one word we could use. Concerning your being sure that I know, yes, I got that much; I also got the implication that learning about social issues such as racism is counter-productive. You still insist that it is harmful to focus too much on these issues. You have given no evidence that the current focus is “too much.”

The implication again is that the raising of social conscience is not a part of an outstanding education. Any evidence?

Obviously, my point is that the black community still has plenty to complain about, and it isn’t justifiable to say that it’s time to forget the past.

240

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MrO *
**

“It is better to light one candle…than to curse the darkness.”