BG, I note that you have been bashed left right and centre, and are none the worse for wear. I have been called everything in the book in my time on SDMB, and I am still a happy and smiling individual.
My guess is that Islam is just too used to the concept of “I am right and woe unto you for being wrong”. I think debate on religious issues with strangers on the Internet is just toooo level a playing field for Islam.
Otherwise, why not come on here and make mincemeat of me with rational pro-Islam arguments?
[shrug] No more so than Christianity. Both religions are rooted in that, yet each has a centuries-old tradition of philosophical theological debate. (In strictly intramural terms, that is.)
I am not talking about interpreting the Koran literally. I am talking about a book that contains well over 1000 demands that you believe or else Allah will get you good. No discussion, no debate. Shut up and submit.
I am talking about the fact that most Muslim countries still punish people for “insulting Islam” “b;asphemy” and some even get you for naming a Teddy Bear “Mohammed”.
Then, suddenly, here is a format where they cannot intimidate or threaten the infidel. They can only discuss and use rational arguments.
I am not saying that Muslims are prohibited from getting an account on SDMB. On the contrary, since they are not prohibited from doing so by Islam, why not come on here and shut my fool mouth with rational arguments?
It may be skating on the edge of improper behaviour for this forum, but could you be so kind to indulge me and point out when anyone ever managed to do this, on any subject?
Look, I can get where you’re coming from, Valteron. I once, with the best of intentions, invited white supremacists into this Forum to defend their views. The general Dopesensus was that this was ill-advised.
Of course, that lot are cranks by any reasonable standard. We cannot so casually dismiss an ancient faith embraced by one human being in six.
You sure seem to think like one. There are many verses in the Koran about how Allah will harden the heart of the unbelievers so that the Devil can lead them astray (leading one to wonder how the unbelievers are deserving of punishment if they are just doing what Allah has ordained).
Also, I find it horrible that you do not believe that Muslims would be able to convert me (or if not me, perhaps other readers) with their rational and non-violent arguments. As the Koran says, at Surah 22, verse if one doubts the victory of Mohammed and Islam:
22:15 Whoso is wont to think (through envy) that Allah will not give him (Muhammad) victory in the world and the Hereafter (and is enraged at the thought of his victory), let him stretch a rope up to the roof (of his dwelling), and let him hang himself. Then let him see whether his strategy dispelleth that whereat he rageth!.
We’re not talking about Buddhism or Sikhism here, but a faith which, like all the Yahvist faiths, is based on purported divine revelation, which you either accept or not. Witnessing would be fine, but rational argument would be beside the point.
Bah!!! You obviously haven’t watched enough Christian preachers on TV or you would hardly be batting an eye at this. It’s par for the course in Christian fundy-land.
I think I may have mentioned this in another thread but recently my girlfriend was proselytized by both some Muslim students and a Christian co-worker. In each case, when she mentioned her belief in science, they presented her with a booklet that tried to argue that their holy book was most compatible with (and had actually foreseen seen discovered by) modern science. I had a fun time taking a look at them. And, as a scientist looking at both of those books, I can tell you that the Muslim one was better hands-down. Not only did it have quite a lot of detailed and interesting science in it (like the physics in thunderclouds, as I recall) as opposed to the laundry-list of vague points that the Christian one had, but it didn’t have the sort of dumb statements that the Christian one did (such as the claim that ancients had no way of knowing that stars have different brightnesses as the Bible correctly stated…I swear I am not making this up!) Furthermore, the Christian one was further hampered by the fact that it couldn’t resist actually contradicting modern science that it didn’t believe in…namely evolution and non-young-earth geology / cosmology. Of course, the statements it used were the usual stupidities such as the claim that evolutionary theory violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
I would need someone more well-versed in Islam to tell me what the different sects believe in regards to evolution but I can tell you that the impression I got from reading the Muslim booklet was that they accepted evolution and an old earth and universe…or at least that they weren’t hung up on trying to dispute it. It was actually refreshing to read a religious booklet that seemed to respect modern science (even if making questionable connections between it and vague statements in the Koran) rather than disputing the parts of it they didn’t like.
Anyway, this is admittedly an example based on two booklets that may not be completely representative of each religion. But, it seems like a lot more than what your example…and in fact your whole post is based on…which seems to me to be pretty much just the usual silliness we have heard from you in regards to Islam.
But you already have dismissed ancient faiths by the dozens that existed for thousands of years and were believed by perhaps billions of individuals! I am talking about belief in Zeus, Jupiter, etc. Unless you really believe Mars and Aphrodite and the rest are living up there on Mount Olympus.
There are two ancient faiths today that are embraced by over one human being in six, and you MUST dismiss one of them, logically speaking:
Christianity believes that Jesus was the Son of God (or Allah) and that Mohammed is a false prophet who did not really receive a revelation from God.
Islam believes that God (Allah) had no son, that Jesus was just a human prophet, and that Mohammed was the final prophet.
I have just presented you with two mutually contradictory assertions, BrainGlutton.
When a rational human being is presented with two such assertions, then unless he is insane, he must reject at least one. You can in fact reject both if you believe there is no God, or if you are Jewish, Hindu, etc. But you cannot refuse to dismiss at least one of them and still call yourself a rational, thinking human.
Valteron, your whole position is an enormous straw man designed as a not not very subtle rant against Islam and it has been expressed in hostile tones that are not conducive to a genuine debate. If you continue in the current format, you will be asked to open a separate thread in the Pit, (since this one will have been closed).
Making up imaginary arguments why someone should offer themselves up for abuse, then responding to your own rhetorical questions with claims for your non-existent opposition that they have never expressed is the tactic favored by Creationist preachers and talk radio hosts.
I’ve only recently come into contact with Muslims in any significant manner. I went to visit a mosque last year and one of them gave me a soft sell on Islam. Gave me a book detailing why Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc., were flawed and why Islam was better. I wasn’t offended or anything because I know Islam is a proselytizing religion. I would have been offended if they hadn’t tried to recruit me.
I didn’t really attempt to debate any of them because I knew so little about Islam. There was a mix of Muslims born in other countries and some born here in the states and I can’t single anyone out that didn’t seem more unreasonable than your typical religious christian.
I did not speak to one Muslim woman during my whole visit. Just men.
And what does that matter if it’s not taken literally? There’s plenty of violence in the Bible, too.
If they can only use rational arguments, we should hold ourselves to the same standard.
Because it’s pointless. I’m not a Muslim and I know you don’t listen to any argument for any reason, which keeps me out of many of your threatds. If I actually were a Muslim, I’d probably have skipped this one altogther.
I often think that we (from North-Europe og North-America) must be co-coo in our head to even think that people from muslim-countries wants a society thats anything close to what we defines as a “western democracy”.
I, for one, am still around. But I really don’t have the time or the energy to “debate” Islam with someone who is convinced that it is nothing but pure evil and in a situation where anything I may say or do, any links I may provide, are dismissed out of hand as being “unrepresentative” and of a tiny minority. Meh. I’ll save my energy for more productive pursuits.
Gah. Can’t some of you think of any better arguments than “Oh yeah? Well Christianity sucks too!” Posts like yours are like “Clinton got a blow job” posts inserted into political discussions. Among some on the SDMB, Islam is chic and Christianity is teh suxor. And you never fail to drop these anecdotes that are meaningless whether or not they’re even true. Incidentally, I reckon your story happened some time ago because Creationists officially dropped the 2nd Law argument about five years ago.
