[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Being able to recognize our human errors and apologize is a sign of growth.
Love certainly has a place in helping our fellow man but IMHO you must also be able to discuss and defend, without anger, the details of exactly how love can help us. Many will disagree and some will seek to ridicule. The test is to hang in there and learn to communicate more effectively, and move on. We will seldom change each others minds, but we can plant seeds.
[/QUOTE]
Discussions of love rarely go smooth, those who know the least always claim the best knowledge. You feel universal love or you don’t.
Love cannot be debated, or discussed, it just is. Those who fear will not feel it.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Discussions of love rarely go smooth, those who know the least always claim the best knowledge. You feel universal love or you don’t.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the quotes. We can at least try to have reasonable respectful discussions can’t we? Even on the subject of love. It’s one think to mouth the platitude “Love is te answer” or " we are all one" It’s quite another to try and apply those platitudes to real people in real life.
While it may be true that we either feel love or we don’t at any given moment, we can learn to tap that resource within us. We can become less fearful and more loving with effort, beginning with the desire to grow, and the faith that we can grow.
Love cannot be debated or discussed??? Someone should have told Jesus and a few thousand other people.
Surely people can discuss what they think constitutes an act of love. There are volumes on it. What are you saying?
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Discussions of love rarely go smooth, those who know the least always claim the best knowledge. You feel universal love or you don’t.
[/QUOTE]
What knowledge do you have of love? I have no doubt you have experiences that attribute to love, but what knowledge do you have? Yes, of course the two are different.
:rolleyes: This is a cop out. Fearing love has nothing to do with discussing it. ‘Love’ is going to mean something different to everyone you ask.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Thanks for the quotes. We can at least try to have reasonable respectful discussions can’t we? Even on the subject of love. It’s one think to mouth the platitude “Love is te answer” or " we are all one" It’s quite another to try and apply those platitudes to real people in real life.
While it may be true that we either feel love or we don’t at any given moment, we can learn to tap that resource within us. We can become less fearful and more loving with effort, beginning with the desire to grow, and the faith that we can grow.
Love cannot be debated or discussed??? Someone should have told Jesus and a few thousand other people.
Surely people can discuss what they think constitutes an act of love. There are volumes on it. What are you saying?
[/QUOTE]
More clear words would be, Love can be given and received, it can be felt in the deepest parts of our being. It can be a state of mind, a path to be walked, or a goal to be achieved. Love is unconditional. Love is the appropriate response to all situations in all places.
Now what can we debate about love. Its existence, its nature, its …??
How are we to discuss love? On its strength, power, omnipotance?
Jesus did not discuss love, He told us only how to apply it, and to whom. Which was to everyone at all times.
[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
What knowledge do you have of love? I have no doubt you have experiences that attribute to love, but what knowledge do you have? Yes, of course the two are different.
:rolleyes: This is a cop out. Fearing love has nothing to do with discussing it. ‘Love’ is going to mean something different to everyone you ask.
[/QUOTE]
I can’t think of anything that attributes to love, love is whole and complete. Yes, I do have knowledge of love. Everyone has knowledge of love.
Love may be defined differently by everyone, but that doesn’t mean love has changed. There must be millions of definitions of God. That doesn’t mean God has changed. Forget dogma, doctrines, traditions, and everything else you thought you knew about God and seek the truth of what God and Love really is, I believe you will find they are the same. God, Love, and Truth.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I can’t think of anything that attributes to love, love is whole and complete. Yes, I do have knowledge of love. Everyone has knowledge of love.
[/QUOTE]
Everyone has an idea of love, it’s subjective.
Ask the ancient Greeks about this.
You’re assuming that one of the definitions is true, or that a definition might be true.
This statement almost contains information. This is just an appeal to emotion.
god = love
love = blind
-> Ray Charles is god
god = truth
truth = beauty
-> Monica Belluci is god
[QUOTE=lekatt]
More clear words would be, Love can be given and received, it can be felt in the deepest parts of our being. It can be a state of mind, a path to be walked, or a goal to be achieved. Love is unconditional. Love is the appropriate response to all situations in all places.
Now what can we debate about love. Its existence, its nature, its …??
How are we to discuss love? On its strength, power, omnipotance?
[/QUOTE]
please. More platitudes. They’re nice and all but if love is, as you say, the appropriate response to all situations in all places, then we can discuss what may or may not be an expression of love in any and every situation. For example, is it love to discipline your children? Is it love to forgive someone? All the time in every situation? There’s plenty that has been discussed and will continue to be.
He said, love thy neighbor. Someone asked “Who is my neighbor?” He answered the question. That’s a discussion honest. Look it up.
Look it’s keen and all to expound all these profound things about the nature of love but it’s just silly to say we can’t discuss it. Granted, discussing it is not the same as feeling it and acting in a loving manner. Neither are the platitudes.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
please. More platitudes. They’re nice and all but if love is, as you say, the appropriate response to all situations in all places, then we can discuss what may or may not be an expression of love in any and every situation. For example, is it love to discipline your children? Is it love to forgive someone? All the time in every situation? There’s plenty that has been discussed and will continue to be.
He said, love thy neighbor. Someone asked “Who is my neighbor?” He answered the question. That’s a discussion honest. Look it up.
Look it’s keen and all to expound all these profound things about the nature of love but it’s just silly to say we can’t discuss it. Granted, discussing it is not the same as feeling it and acting in a loving manner. Neither are the platitudes.
[/QUOTE]
You are right, of course, discussing, debating, about the uses of love is common, but falls short of feeling, and expressing love. Perhaps we could discuss the last time we showed love to a complete stranger.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
More clear words would be, Love can be given and received, it can be felt in the deepest parts of our being. It can be a state of mind, a path to be walked, or a goal to be achieved. Love is unconditional. Love is the appropriate response to all situations in all places.
[/quote]
You’ve pretty much smeared love into something so vague as to be meaningless. And how is love the “appropriate response” to being beaten to death ? To a hangnail ? To a sale at Sears ?
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Now what can we debate about love. Its existence, its nature, its …??
How are we to discuss love? On its strength, power, omnipotance?
[/quote]
It’s just an emotion. It’s not “omnipotent” :rolleyes:.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Jesus did not discuss love, He told us only how to apply it, and to whom. Which was to everyone at all times.
[/QUOTE]
Which is an insane position. Raving lunacy.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
You are right, of course, discussing, debating, about the uses of love is common, but falls short of feeling, and expressing love. Perhaps we could discuss the last time we showed love to a complete stranger.
[/QUOTE]
Never. Besides being bizarre, it’s also threatening. Haven’t you ever heard the term “stalker” ?
Love isn’t nearly as good or as important as you keep trying to claim. It’s just another emotion, no better or worse than anger or lust or friendliness. It’s not the solution to all problems, it’s not especially powerful, it’s can be just as destructive as any other emotion. It’s neither good nor bad, and it’s not all that profound either.
[QUOTE=Omegaman]
Then you are lost . Laying hands upon you is what it will take. Hope I don’t see you. You know what happened when Jesus came upon those posessed by evil spirits don’t you ?
[/QUOTE]
A general warning about casting out demons (evil spirits) for those who are not prepared to accept Jesus and the Holy Spirit:
[QUOTE=Luke 11 NIV]
24"When an evil[a] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ 25When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. 26Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first."
[/QUOTE]
Casting out someone’s demons is not always the best thing to do at any one moment.
[QUOTE=Hubert Cumberdale]
What do you mean Jesus has no righteous charge against Satan? Is the fact that he’s the freakin’ Prince of Darkness not enough?
[/QUOTE]
I can’t find a commandment thou shalt not be the prince of darkness (not that the commandments were given to Satan as we humans got them). Notice Satan in Job (OT times), Satan followed God’s limitations on what he could do to Job - there was no violation of God’s word. Satan is sometimes regarded as a legal expect, he knows ho to step right up to the line without crossing it.
[QUOTE=cosmodan]
Thanks for giving my post some consideration and responding.
[/QUOTE]
I find your belief interesting, if not potentially dangerious. I have not been able to totally exclude it in a brief review of scripture, though it does require some interesting interpertations of some verses IMHO. One thing I would like to ask you, which may answer my questions is how do you reconcile the existance of Satan and demons into your belief system?
It did appear to me that the good one does in your post is good as defined by the flesh and not the spirit.
The spiritual gifts are to be used to flow through us to others, it can be to help people come to God through Jesus, or to help fellow Christians, the ladder would seem more spiritual then the former, but some spiritual gifts, notability speaking in tongues IIRC is for the non-believer on the verge of believing. But you are right not to get lost in just the spiritual gifts in themselves - This was the warning to the Church of Ephesus .
Saving you the flip back the second sentence was: ‘What Jesus does do it free that person with the consequences of freeing that person will result in that person being free to serve God.’ - basically when we give our life to Jesus, and Jesus accepts it, for a short time he is the rightful owner. As the rightful owner, He can do what He wants with His ‘property’ including granting freedom to His property, so Jesus frees us to do what we want, and now knowing how much Jesus loves us, we willingly chose to serve Christ. ‘We are no longer slaves, we are daughters and sons’ (from a song, I don’t know if it’s scriptural’.
[QUOTE= Romans 6 NIV]
19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=1Peter16 NASB]
Act as (A)free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as (B)bondslaves of God.
[/QUOTE]
And some other places as well.
Neither do I
I tend to agree.
When they are confident in their faith, able to use the spiritual gifts and the armor of God effectively.
Cor 3:1 and 1 Peter 2:1 are talking to new believer who don’t yet know how to use their spiritual gifts and would not understand speaking in the spirit. I’m not so sure about Phil 2:12, I would have to look into it further (ironically enough).
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Jesus did not discuss love, He told us only how to apply it, and to whom. Which was to everyone at all times.
[/QUOTE]
Can you comment on the below then:
[QUOTE=Luke 14:26 NIV]
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.
[/QUOTE]
I find your belief interesting, if not potentially dangerious. I have not been able to totally exclude it in a brief review of scripture, though it does require some interesting interpertations of some verses IMHO. One thing I would like to ask you, which may answer my questions is how do you reconcile the existance of Satan and demons into your belief system?
[/QUOTE]
I haven’t experienced anything that makes me believe in a literal Satan as a being or demons, although sometimes I hear about an evil so horrific I wonder how it could come from any human. Then again, Jesus said hating someone was the same as murder so are the actual deeds really any worse than what’s in our hearts? I don’t know. In order for us to have something to choose there has to be a yin and a yang, so how the negative exists is still a mystery. It’s enough to know it does and we still have progress to make.
Okay, but that is where the rubber meets the road. The Bible says it’s not enough to tell a hungry man “I’ll pray for you” and then send him away hungry.
I understand. I see that kind of language, and the kind in the scriptures you listed as more of a metaphor for our state of mind and our level of growth. We start out as spiritual babes but as we grow to maturity we become what? My grown children are still my children, still a part of me, but they are my equals as adults. My peers.
I see. Could you share your thoughts on the people that refered to Jesus as Lord and did things in his name but were still rejected.
You’ll see this teaching all through the NT. such as
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I haven’t experienced anything that makes me believe in a literal Satan as a being or demons,
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or not, but what I am really asking is can your belief system exist if Satan and or demons exist as living supernatural beings as described by Jesus?
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Can you comment on the below then:
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I can comment on the verse Luke 14:26. First of all the Bible is not the word of God to me, only the words of the men who wrote it. That doesn’t mean it is worthless. The Bible contains much useful material, but we don’t know how much is truth and how much is interpretation. I like the sayings of Jesus because they will lead a person to God’s love. There are some of the sayings attributed to Him that do not follow the pattern of His love teachings. I don’t use them. I use what is helpful from all the sources that I read. Just like everyone else does, only I will admit it.
Jesus, when he turned and said:
14:26 CEV You cannot be my disciple, unless you love me more than you love your father and mother, your wife and children, and your brothers and sisters. You cannot come with me unless you love me more than you love your own life.
14:26 AV If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his [own] father and mother [in the sense of indifference to or relative disregard for them in comparison with his attitude toward God] and [likewise] his wife and children and brothers and sisters–[yes] and even his own life also–he cannot be My disciple.
Everything is interpretation. If you would follow Jesus love everyone.
Remember He was a pacifist, so peaceful that He would not let His followers defend Him from the Romans. Neither would He call legions of war angels to save Him (yes, they exist). He walked His talk to the very end. Had He not, by now He would have been forgotten.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
You’ve pretty much smeared love into something so vague as to be meaningless. And how is love the “appropriate response” to being beaten to death ? To a hangnail ? To a sale at Sears ?
It’s just an emotion. It’s not “omnipotent” :rolleyes:.
Which is an insane position. Raving lunacy.
Never. Besides being bizarre, it’s also threatening. Haven’t you ever heard the term “stalker” ?
Love isn’t nearly as good or as important as you keep trying to claim. It’s just another emotion, no better or worse than anger or lust or friendliness. It’s not the solution to all problems, it’s not especially powerful, it’s can be just as destructive as any other emotion. It’s neither good nor bad, and it’s not all that profound either.
[/QUOTE]
I think I will let a spiritual friend of mine (Emmanuel) answer your post.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or not, but what I am really asking is can your belief system exist if Satan and or demons exist as living supernatural beings as described by Jesus?
I’ll have to get to the rest of yoru post later.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t see why not. If angels are spiritual beings to help and guide us toward God, and demons are beings to tempt us away from God toward evil then it’s still a choice we must make. We have free will, or at least the illusion of it. We can choice to fight our personal demons, metaphor or real.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I think I will let a spiritual friend of mine (Emmanuel) answer your post.
[/QUOTE]
Sappy and empty, not to mention wrong and insane ( “against all reason” ). Pretty on the outside, but madness inside; like a lot of religious/semi-religious ideas.
Love can bring misery, and fear can bring happiness - and there are more than two emotions, you know. Love is not intrinsically good, no matter how often you insist it is. It is not the great grand thing you say it is. It’s simply not all that important.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Sappy and empty, not to mention wrong and insane ( “against all reason” ). Pretty on the outside, but madness inside; like a lot of religious/semi-religious ideas.
Love can bring misery, and fear can bring happiness - and there are more than two emotions, you know. Love is not intrinsically good, no matter how often you insist it is. It is not the great grand thing you say it is. It’s simply not all that important.
[/QUOTE]
and of course all this is only your opinion. I’ll take something a little less negative thanks.
