We may be talking small details past one another, but I disagree with this part of your statement: “… there is the trifling little detail that it’s illegal for the second car to go.”
Any car whose nose is across the hold line at the instant the light turns from yellow to red has legally entered the intersection and may legally proceed as soon as opposing traffic has cleared. Depending on how deep the intersection is, which depends on how wide the cross road is, there may be room for 2 or even 3 cars to legally wait inside the intersection.
I agree 100% that any driver sitting behind the hold line, like the OP’s green car, who enters the intersection after the light has turned red is guilty of running a red light and should be promptly apprehended and summarily shot. It’s one of *the *most dangerous bad diving habits and endemic around here.
I’ve lived in a large number of states where red/blue was the norm and as far as I know, legal. Recently I moved to a state where not only is green the norm but the police aggressively ticket drivers who pause in the red/blue position. While traffic laws are fairly consistent from state to state there are some subtle differences like this one.
Medium for passing each other, turn lane for waiting until you are able to do so.
I stop as shown in green until it’s clear for me to turn and pass as shown for blue/red. I take it as the turning lane is for waiting and the medium is for passing as in both cars are able to proceed through with their turn…not to wait. It probably differs from state to state but no one else really cares so why should you, just proceed in whichever fashion deems the safest. If the road is designed to obstruct my view, then I go into the medium where I can see.
If it’s wrong I don’t care as I drive in reaction based on the behavior of others near me. Some drive too aggressive or too passive and though it’s annoying, it will never be stopped regardless of the road design.
From the diagram as drawn, with the median to the left of the green cars being as wide as said cars, I’d say the red/blue positions are okay, except for the possibility of being rear-ended and forced into the oncoming traffic.
In Illinois/Chicago, there is only very rarely such a wide median. Almost always it’s just a double yellow line or something very slightly wider. It’s legal and customary to pull straight out into the middle of the intersection and stop. But once there you don’t turn your wheels at all until you actually execute the turn. The rationale for this is that if you turned your wheels, you might creep into oncoming traffic. Lots of drivers have a habit of creeping forward under various circumstances, and not turning the wheels takes that into account. Being rear-ended is a lot rarer, but not turning the wheels takes care of that, too.
WHAT ??
Turning is turning. As long as you do not block the through lanes… or the oncoming lane… perhaps they are parking a truck in there and basically blocking the other direction…
If I understand you correctly, if you were the northbound car you would pull to the position of the red car as your southbound counterpart would pull to the position of the blue car. This would mean that the two left-turning vehicles would cross paths, which is dangerous at best and probably illegal. You don’t “do si do your partner” when turning left. And this diagram shows left-turn-only lanes, so going straight through would also be illegal.
The cars would pull up alongside each other. Each car stops before making the turn to ensure there are no approaching cars before completing the turn. This is when there are no traffic lights. I find this situation quite frequently on Hwy 17 south of Charleston, SC.
I understand exactly what you mean, but it’s a bad idea. I can see how this can almost work when there are only two cars but when you have cars lined up in both directions to turn left it creates havoc. A left-turning car is not supposed to pull into the path of an oncoming left-turning car, because that blocks the oncoming car’s ability to complete his turn, impedes the flow of traffic, and invites collisions. A line of traffic doing this would require an exquisite weave pattern.
The exception to this would be if you are going the east-west direction of the OP’s diagram where you have to cross past a median before making your turn. Then you treat the oncoming left-turning cars the same as oncoming no-turn cars, since they can’t turn until they get past you.
On Hwy 17 most cars are driving east and west. There are gaps in the median for cars to make U-turns, and you pull into the gap on your left (but on your right side and wait until you can make the left turn (which is actually a U-turn). A car coming from the other direction does likewise, and he pulls into his right alongside you.
Bahhh. Pull into the intersection while you have a green. If traffic does clear while you have the green light, go. If it does not, you will have a yellow. Wait to make sure no one is trying to barrel through on the yellow and oncoming traffic is stopping. Then continue your turn.
I would be up with the blue/red cars but I don’t think the cars would be angled quite that much in real life. When I’m in this situation I’m still mostly pointed straight ahead, maybe pointed to 11 o’clock or so for the blue car. Probably depends on the size of the intersection and the width of the median, though.
Here’s the intersection I was thinking of when I wrote the OP.
Most people when waiting to turn off 85th onto douglas will wait adjacent to those orange rectangles whereas I’m out in that shaded grey square out in the middle of the intersection hugging the side to where I’m about to turn. My travel distance is now cut to almost 1/2 to 1/3 of hanging out to where others sit.
Also, if I’m heading west on 85th and want to go south on Douglas, and at the same time there’s somebody at the stop sign on Douglas waiting to hang a left onto 85th, we can cross at the same time when there’s a gap in traffic.
If I hang way back waiting to make my turn, I kind of screw that guy over since he has to wait for me to cross his path.
Makes NO difference. The side traffic has a stop sign. Move forward to help you see past the other car turning left, and proceed when it is clear.
Again? This is a question? I’ve been driving for 39 years and have never been in any accident ever, period.
Hang back and you can’t see. Move forward a bit so you can. And the case of an intersection without a light, you won’t get ‘stuck’ on a red (if you know how to drive, that’s not an issue except for the most timid new drivers)
What a mess. If someone heading E on 85th wants to turn left into Douglas, and is sitting in the turn lane, don’t you block him by sitting in the rectangle trying to turn east on 85th when you head south on Douglas?
I definitely agree with your strategy. Your way you get to only worry about traffic in one direction at a time. It is far easier to miss someone coming if you are waiting for things to clear in both directions, not to mention never actually making it across.
There is a similar situation when I come out of my bank. I want to turn left, but in this case there are no islands. Half the time I wind up going to the light on the corner and making a U-turn. Faster and safer.
You have the right of way. Cross traffic has a STOP sign. Use your legal ROW so they can predict what you are going to do.
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Please. Yes it seems ‘nice’ to let someone else go, but unless you are in gridlock, USE YOUR ROW so as to not confuse others.
You DON’T see the same traffic as the person you wave through.
That’s not what he’s saying. His point is that if he is waiting in the intersection and no one is behind him waiting to turn left, then the person crossing has room to cross behind him.