Class and the culture tied therin is more of a determiner of accent than culture by itself, I believe.
Regional variation is always present, but it is not always obvious. A west coast speaker of AAVE will not sound identical to one from New York, and the differences will be immediately obvious to them both (if not necessarily to an untrained outsider.)
I suspect that “cultural” accents are regional accents–but the “region” is the result of incidental or forced separation: ghettoes.
Both blacks and (many) Jews lived in enforced separation in Northern cities, with the Jewish community escaping that condition quite a bit earlier. There are fairly large Jewish communities in both the Detroit and Cleveland metro areas, but they have been fairly mobile since before I was born. None of my Jewish bosses or co-workers ever displayed the sort of accent that I associate with NYC/Yiddish. However, several of them definitely had a subtle cadence when asking a question or expressing surprise that echoed slightly of NYC–and this among people in their 30s or 50s who had never been as far East as Pennsylvania.
I don’t think it’s that different than many Irish communities hanging on to the brogue for several generations after they had settled in the U.S. The really large Polish migration to the U.S. occurred well before WWII, yet I grew up among people with Polish accents who were at least second generation U.S. Out in my suburban neighborhood, I never heard a Polish accent among the kids, but when I went to high school, several kids from Wyandotte and Hamtramck had expressions or pronunciations that were distinct. The Polish accents of such separate cities as Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, and Pittsburgh are all recognizable as Polish (even as they fade).
As each group joins the melting pot, their accents become less pronounced. So which group was contained in ghettoes in Northern cities longer than any other group? Most of my suburban black co-workers have only very slight traces of a Southern accent, no greater than the Polish or Jewish hints at figures of speech or pronunciation that I have encountered. The accents that are most pronounced among the blacks I know are among people who are still living in the neighborhoods that are overwhelmingly black.
Simple associative reinforcement.
Because, in this case, it just plain is. You cannot make a blanket statement like “Jewish people too have a distinct cadence to their words, irrespective of where they are from” and expect anyone of reasonable intelligence not to find that to be exactly what it is - a generalization that’s nothing more than HOOEY. That’s like saying all gay men lisp regardless of where they are from and thinking it’ll go unchallenged.
I dare you to call me on the phone and tell me precisely how it is that I sound Jewish to you.
Just because Jewish people where you live sound a certain way, doesn’t mean we all do, nor does it mean that even the majority do. Far from it. I really would challenge you to walk around any Midwestern, Southern, Northeastern or Western city in the U.S. and pick out all the Jews you happen to run into just by the way they talk. I guarantee you it can’t be done.
Feh, I meant Northwestern. It’s late and I’m annoyed.
Woah!
Let’s define terms.
An accent is a patterned way of speech that involves phonetics.
Hooey, Schmooey or Fat, Schmat or the adding of an sh and rhyming it is a dialectic variation (which involves word choices and usage).
I would agree that the overwhelming majority of Jews in the U.S. cannot be identified by their speech. I do think that a good number of people who have lived in Jewish neighborhoods for a couple of generations have kept some pronunciations and expressions from their great-X?-grandparents’ Yiddish.
It would be certainly too much to claim that all Jews can be identified by their speech. It would be also an error to assert that every Jew who has left NY has shed all the speech patterns of their ancestors.
I think Biggirl’s original statement was made far too broadly, but I think that it needs to be clarified and its focus narrowed rather than dismissing it, completely.
Someone once told me that many West African languages did not have an vowel then an “s” sound that preceeded a consonant, and in general dislike “hissing” s sounds, just as English speakers avoid “guttural” sounds that are common in other languages, we all have ideas about what is euphonic (not eubonic) and not.
As a result in Caribbean Spanish “Usted está” sounds more like “u’ted e’taj”.
And in AAVE, words like “ask” may sound like “aks, or ax”. And some “s” sounds may be dropped, like “he take” instead of “he takes”.
I sort of think that was a load of crap, as I think the Andalusian Spaniards brought that “swallowed s” to the Carribean, but I wonder if it makes sense to anyone else.
It was mentioned earlier that accents don’t change as one moves to a different region. Maybe I’m a freak, but mine changed.
After highschool I moved from Philadelphia to Louisville, KY. To the folks in Louisville, I sounded like your typical Philly Italian. I lived there for about two years, then moved back to Philly. Big difference there.
It was evident that I had picked up many of the speech patterns of the area I had lived in. Not just little words and phrases, that are native to that area (never call it Leweyville, it’s Lowevol.), but I pronounced things a little differently as well.
Now that I’m back in Philly, I think most of it has gone away.
My father sounds like Mario, from the Super Mario Bros. He will sound like Mario, no matter where he is in the country. That has nothing to do with the OP, but you should hear the guy. Such a stereotypical Italian immigrant, just love the guy.
While we’re on this topic can someone answer this for me? Why does a majority of the black community (well educated people included so don’t say it’s b/c people are less educated) say “Let me ax you something?” rather than “Let me ask you something?” What’s with the word ax instead of ask? It drives me nuts that a person knows that the proper word isn’t ax yet they still say it. I don’t understand why an educated person or even a less educated person would say ax. I have a four year degree and while I’m certain I use slang terms in a casual situation if I am speaking to someone I don’t know or speaking to an official or superior(ie, judge, law officer, manager) I would feel like I am embarassing and degrading myself by saying something that I know is incorrect. I hate when people use the word ain’t but the word ax is about 2 notches above ain’t on the annoying level. I was reviewing a coworkers notes per their request and saw that they had even spelled the word “axked” in their notes. Is there a secret ax society which is covertly trying to replace the word ask?
I know plenty of white people (both educated and un-) who also go around “axing” people. They’re usually the same people who want “pacific” information. Education does not preclude lazy speech.
FTR, we have exactly one Jew where I work. She sounds Canadian. Because she is.
Why do mature, educated people from Massachusetts say Cuber for Cuba? Why do mature, educated people through a certain section of the upper midwest say melk instead of milk? Once a pronunciation has become part of an accent, it is liable to stay there regardless of spelling unless forced out by a different sound sequence.
As to the origins of ax vs. ask, I have also heard the theory jaimest mentioned (although I have not seen it in a linguistics text). Since I also know a number of white guys who say ax for ask, I’ll have to try to figure out their ethnic background (i.e., did the same “no s before a plosive consonant” occur in the European language of their ancestors? Or did they grow up in an area heavily influenced by AAVE?).
Did you mean to imply that the ax vs. ask pronunciation was simply lazy speech? It it not, of course.
Terminus asked
>> how would you account for the valleyspeak that most girls (and some guys ) seem to use these days? You know? Where you raise your voice at the end of every statement? Like you’re asking a question? And in an annoying pinched voice? Anyone?
I have heard this called “upspeak” and I thought it was a preppie thing as you most often hear it in young girls. It gets on my nerves like few things. Adults do not realise how stupid they sound when they do this. I can’t stand it.
Regarding black speech I do not have much to contribute except the anecdote that yesterday some guy called me on the phone to offer his services (which I needed, he was returning my call) and his speech was so bad I could hardly understand him. I think it was not only his black dialect but also not enough education. He just sounded like grunts to me. I could not even guess what he was saying. I guess anyone can speak whatever languge they prefer but if you are trying to communicate with people to sell your services you’d better make sure they understand you.
Re-watching “The Story of English” a year or so ago, I was struck by the assertion that American regional accents were “flattening out” and slowly being replaced by the mostly mid-western “T.V.” accent. The same episode spoke of an “American Black” accent. Different from Ebonics, it was exemplified by the old ABC announcer (the next week on Hillstreet Blues guy.) This accent was distinguisable from the mostly mid-western accent by vowel sounds and cadence. This is what got me thinking about “cultural accents.”
I’ve searched high and low for my book, but can’t find it anywhere.
Shayna, I’m sorry if the way I phrased my post raised your hackles. I assumed since we were discussing accents that certain generalizations were being taken for granted. Accents are a general thing as no one speaks exactly the same way as someone else. But the truth is, even though I could not tell over the phone whether a person was Jewish (or Slavic or Gullah) if that person has been immersed in his regional accent for a generation or so, this doesn’t mean that a liguist --especially one who studies dialect and accents-- could not.
Replacing ask with “ask” is not just Ebonic. It can be traced back through medieval English all the way back to regional dialects of Anglo-Saxon.
suprfli, you just made the Baby Chomsky cry. Speech that is different from your own, or even speech that you find irritating, is not necessarily wrong. Were this the Pit or even GD I’d have a few more choice words from you, but as it is GQ I will just say that you would do well to read a real book on linguistics.
Quoted from: http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~patrickp/aavesem/EbonicsQ&A.html
“What is Ebonics?”
One reason linguists don’t use the term “Ebonics” very happily is that it is very vague, and so such questions are hard to answer. We generally use the term “African American Vernacular English”, or AAVE, instead to mean the kinds of speech characteristically spoken by working-class U.S. African Americans, within their community, at occasions calling for intimacy or informality.
Linguists know very well that there are African Americans who cannot speak this dialect with native fluency; that there are some non-African Americans who can (though very few); and that almost all African Americans have some command of other forms of English, including Standard American English. In fact, there are characteristically African American ways of speaking the latter - which means there is a Standard African American English, too. A very large number of African American adults are perfectly at home with both AAVE and Standard American English, and are skilled at using each in the appropriate circumstances.
It seems sensible, then, to speak of a generalized family of dialects - AAE, or African American English - which includes all the various ways of speaking characteristic of African Americans: standard and vernacular, working- and middle-class, in settings formal and professional or informal and intimate. It is sensible, also, to use the term AAVE for a particular branch of AAE. When people say “Ebonics,” they often refer to this system, which linguists have studied the most."
I have also noticed that a major difference between Black speech and others is in the cadence, and not just the accent. This seems to me to be the primary difference between Black speech and Southern. (Though I haven’t noticed this with Blacks who do not speak sterotypically Black or with Jews - more with inner-city Blacks). I’m not exactly sure what this difference is, but I think it involves putting a greater degree of emphasis on certain words in a sentence (as opposed to having the emphasis be lighter), and possibly on different words of the sentence.
An example would be the sentence “I didn’t know what to do” (more heavily on the “do”). A standard speaker would have the emphasis on the words “didn’t” and “do”. A “Black” speaker might have it on “I” and “what” (more heavily on the “what”).
I wonder if it might be the influence of a type of music.
Sorry, should be
Me too, unless, of course, it’s Churchill:
“Makes me look half-witted, which I ain’t.” 