About four or five times, so far.
Means diddly. If 100 people in a row revealed her status, it would still be illegal for the 101st.
Not from the Armitage leak. Armitage was not the only leak. And if seeking to discredit Wilson for political advantage is distinct from a “revenge” motive, sure. Wasn’t personal, strictly la biziness.
So. This is all you got?
Oh, and your *sensai *is a girly boy.
Refresher course:
Joe Wilson’s editorial from the NYT, July 6, 2003: What I Didn’t Find In Africa.
Robert Novak’s column from July 14, 2003, providing information from two White House sources.
This comment in Novak’s column drew my attention:
They had to go long to discredit Joe. It took eight days from column to column.
[QUOTE=Scylla]
RTF addresses this issue from another angle in a hopeless and stupid attempt to save a sinking boat and defend an indefensible accusation.
There are two really basic stupidities at work in this statement. The accusation against the Bush administration is specific. It can either be demonstrated to be so in which case it is a valid accusation. Or, it cannot, in which case it is a fucking lie and anybody who tells it is a fucking liar. You have to be able to prove an accusation. It’s not a hypothetical, or a possibility. It’s an accusation. [\quote]And you’re claiming you’ve disproven it. You’re not claiming that it’s still quite possible that Rove and Cheney and whoever else outed Plame as an act of vengeance, but that the case hasn’t been proven; you’re claiming Armitage’s admission contradicts it.
So again (or rather, still), if ‘X and Y’ is possible, proving Y doesn’t disprove X.
You can’t lose your virginity twice, but (as any gay person will tell you) you can be ‘outed’ multiple times, to different persons.
If Armitage disclosed Plame’s identity to one reporter, Libby to another, and Rove to yet another, all before the disclosure became public, they are all equally guilty of having outed her, and may well have each believed they were doing so. (If there’s any indication that Armitage told anyone else of his slip before it became public, I sure haven’t seen it. The stories I’ve seen seem to say he didn’t even realize he’d goofed until months later.)
From the POV of the law, even the public disclosure doesn’t matter. If you know someone’s a covert US intelligence agent, you’re not supposed to confirm that that is the case, even after their cover is blown.
Oh, I fully agree.
So, our people feared in 1997 that her cover was blown to the Russians. Was that ever borne out?
And by 1997, the Cold War was history, and our relations with the Russians were much better than when Aldrich Ames was doing his dirty work. Even assuming the Russians knew about Plame, is there any indication that the KGB shared this info with our post-Cold War enemies?
That agent, Fred Rustmann - has he identified any neighbors who knew Plame worked for the CIA, before Novak’s story? Or has anyone else? Because (see links) it seems to have come as a surprise to their next-door neighbors.
Rustmann again - he’s the guy who says, apparently baselessly, that all her friends and neighbors knew she was CIA.
When it’s shown that he’s backed up that claim, I’ll pay more attention to his opinion on related issues.
You don’t think Novak just might be covering his own ass here?
True dat. Once Novak published her identity on the op-ed page of the Washington Post, she wasn’t clandestine anything beginning that day.
Apparently not. Got anything better?
Funny how it was only a bbig news item in 2005. Guess the Vast Left Wing Conspiracy needs to work on its timing.
Given that you can’t prove your claims, I can’t see why you should expect anyone to abandon the positions you say you’ve refuted.
Fixing the coding:
And you’re claiming you’ve disproven it. You’re not claiming that it’s still quite possible that Rove and Cheney and whoever else outed Plame as an act of vengeance, but that the case hasn’t been proven; you’re claiming Armitage’s admission contradicts it.
So again (or rather, still), if ‘X and Y’ is possible, proving Y doesn’t disprove X.
Joe Wilson was specifically not commenting on whether or not his wife had been a covert agent prior to Novak’s column.
Scylla, it shows how low you’re willing to stoop that you take part of this quote out of context to make it mean exactly the opposite of what it means.
A little more googling turns up this:
Sounds like Rustmann wasn’t even there during the period in question, let alone supervising Plame.
The linked piece references three neighbors who were surprised to find that Plame was employed by the CIA, two of which I’ve already referenced via link.
Again, to the best of my knowledge, no one has yet produced a neighbor of the Wilsons’ who claims to have known of Plame’s CIA employ before 2003. All we have is Rustmann’s claim, and Rustmann doesn’t appear to have been in a good position to know.
It’s practically pathological with you, this blame the liberals. It’s not that the ID of a CIA agent (whether covert or classified) was leaked by the administration during our War or Terrorism (which, if done by a Democrat would’ve resulted in a hanging), it’s the liberals speculating about the motive for it. It’s not the illegal wiretapping of US citizens, it’s the unfounded belief that Democrats did it too. It’s not the faulty, cherry-picked, and wrong intelligence as a basis for an invasion, it’s that some dems bought it too. It’s not the inability to find Osama bin Laden, it’s the liberals calling for censure. It’s not the torture and murder of Iraqis in Abu Ghraib or during the occupation, it’s the liberals blowing it out of proportion. Every time this administration screws up (giving them the benefit of the doubt of incompetence), it’s conveniently overlooked. You save your animosity and outcry for the liberals responding to it, and not the people fucking up. It’s sad, pathetic, and has sent your credibility spiraling down the toilet. That’s what I need to know and have learned from you.
I’m actually waiting for yet unrevealed facts to come out, and to have the time to educate myself about the issue before spouting off. I know getting all the information before letting blind partisan hackery jerk you around isn’t exactly your strong suit, but it’s the way to actually have a debate. I know that doesn’t fit your way of looking at things, but it is precisely your way of looking at things that I find so troubling.
Then I’m not sure what the argument here is. Rove confirmed that Plame was a CIA agent, which allowed Novakula to publish his story. It’s hard to believe that was simple incompetence, since he called multiple reporters to leak the same information to them, and even if it was incompetence, it was still illegal. (And say what you will about Rove, he is certainly not incompetent.)
My personal experience with covert operations is minimal. I’m inclined to accept the opinion of the “former CIA chief of counterterrorism operations and analysis”, which apparently differs from yours.
The CIA doesn’t fill me in on the details of their inner workings. (Yet.) Some people with impressive-sounding titles at the CIA seemed to think it was a potential problem.
The CIA suspected that Ames may have blown her cover. Even if he did, there’s a huge difference between someone spreading the rumor that you might be NOC and the administration confirming it (or calling reporters to tell them about it).
Wilson was a pretty obvious pick to send looking for yellowcake, since he knew the field and had the right contacts in the area. I can’t imagine there were many people like that. There was no reason to think that Plame was the reason he went.
No one, AFAIK, has argued that Plame was still engaged in covert operations. But her status with the CIA was still covert, and her previous work was covert. Even if a few people suspected or knew about this, the administration had no business confirming it, much less calling reporters to tell them about it. Maybe there were reasons to do this other than discrediting and/or taking revenge against Wilson, but damn if I can think of what they could have been.
I don’t want to sidetrack this newest installment in a long line of the Passion of the Scylla for yet more attention for this numbnuts, but here is my post as to why the little story reflects racism rather than intellectual growth on Scylla’s part. Pay attention to how Scylla’s thinking about how “Maybe there really were niggers after all” is unlearned by politically correct “happy crap.”
Enderw24:
[quote]
I don’t think there’s any possible chance of misinterpretation here. IT WAS RICHARD ARMITAGE, you categorically state. Then Hamlet asks you why you’re not outraged at the administration for keeping someone on who did this. Why you’re not upset at an internal investigation that spent THREE YEARS with no results on who leaked the information? Why you’re not upset at Richard Armitage for committing this disgusting and treasonous act.
And your response is “That I know the difference between indicted and guilty?”
[quote]
Noooo. He asked me why I wasn’t upset at Libby’s indictment.
Elucidator:
Completely different in fact, you moron.
Gigobuster:
There’s nothing that creates any mendacity of the administration, nothing to suggest it was retribution. Nothing at all, other than your fabrications, and Armitage claims it was a mistake. Isikoff merely reports it and Armitage is quoted.
Bullshit! Fitzgerald has specifically disavowed any such statement, and done so explicitly. “Let me say two things. Number one, I am not speaking to whether or not Valerie Wilson was covert. And anything I say is not intended to say anything beyond this: that she was a CIA officer from January 1st, 2002, forward. I will confirm that her association with the CIA was classified at that time through July 2003. And all I’ll say is that, look, we have not made any allegation that Mr. Libby knowingly, intentionally outed a covert agent. We have not charged that. And so I’m not making that assertion.”
It’s not saying she was the day before, either. In fact, no real argument can be made that she was covert since she came back to Langley in 1997 married Wilson and had kids. To be “covert” specifically means that the CIA needs to be active in generating a cover for you and you have to serve abroad in the last five years since the CIA is specifically precluded from operating within the US in this manner. Neither occured. Her cover was blown first by Ames, than by marrying Wilson, then by Wilson’s editorial.
RTF:
Armitage’s claim that he did it accidently and without malice contradicts the clame that Rove, Cheney et al did it for retribution. It only happened once. There is now no positive evidence that retribution occured. It’s a fabrication. Always has been.
He’s a 24 year veteran and was Plame’s boss for a while which certainly puts him in a reasonable position. Certainly, it’s a better position of knowledge than you chuckleheads who continue to assert that she was covert or that there was deliberate mendacity in outing her. You are in no position to know this, and you have no fucking cites of anybody providing evidence of mendacity.
To this day, neither Wilson nor Plame is claiming she had covert status, not even in her lawsuit against the administration. She is merely claiming that she lost the ability to be covert in the future (which is pretty fucking ridiculous, but hey).
You are claiming a status for them that they are not stupid enough to attempt to claim.
Hamlet
Not all. Just the wingnuts. They are pretty stupid and mendacious. Look at Hentor just longing to be a part of the conversation but all he can do is spout “racist!”
These are you people. Mean, stupid, ignorant, lying.
I find the OP’s arguments in support of his premise (liberal=liar) are not supported by the facts he has presented, and find his unsubstantiated crowing about his supposed ‘victory’ and his repetetive, childish insults tiresome in the extreme. I have completely wasted nearly an hour wading through his specious arguments and tedious verbiage in this thread, and I therefore demand compensation of $45 (my normal hourly consulting rate) from the OP for my wasted time.
Regarding Washington Post Editors and their belief that Wilson was all wet.
The first editorial to make that claim.
On the front page of the same edition.
Schizo, to say the least. Makes one wonder if their editors actually read the news.
Again, you’re (unsurprisingly) missing the entire point. Rather than ranting over this administration’s gigantic faults, you blame the “ilk” for pointing them out, perhaps too aggressively. It’s staggering in its stupidity, that the liberals who question the motives for the leak get your ire, while the original leaker, the guy who confirmed (the press still needs two sources I believe), and a guy who apparently lied about it get a pass. You are the epitome of the idiotic, partisan Republican machine, the guy who lashes out at liberals whenever they can and ignores the gaping incompetence of the administration. You’re a whore, a puppet, a lickspittle, and an unthinking idealogue. It’s absolutely pathetic.
And I’ll take “my” message board people being mean, stupid, ignorant and lying rather than the members of the administration I so cravenly support being those same things.l
As it turns out this “gigantic fault” is an election year fabrication.
Because the whole thing is a sordid fabrication. Wilson writes an editorial about his secret missions and imagines that his wife’s notional clandestine status will not be compromised. She was already outed by Ames, married a high profile diplomat, had kids and moved to VA. She’s not a covert agent, and her classified status was leaked as a direct consequence of her husband’s cries for attention in an attempt to smear the Bush campaign in an election year. As soon as that fails they move to phase two which is Blame the Bushes for the outing.
It is an incredibly thin and transparent scenario.
This board is about fighting ignorance. It is chock full of dumbass left wing shitheads who make vague and generalized arguments like “gaping incompetance of the administration” without really knowing what they are talking about.
I am merely fighting the ignorance which is so abundant.
I’m not even a Republican. I’m just anti-stupidity.
Excellent. You stand by Hentor, as you stand by others who make specious and damaging lies. It really is the defining aspect of the ilk. I find it despicable.
If this were the first time you’ve ever done this, I wouldn’t nearly be so upset. But it’s a consistant, and constant, thing with you, whether it’s Plame, the NSA, Guantanemo, or Abu Ghraib; it’s always the liberals whining about it that’s the problem, but not this administrations.
Even taking your best case scenario, the identity of a CIA agent was leaked, then confirmed, by members of the Bush administration. Then, in the investigation, another member of the administration gets indicted for lying. If those aren’t problems for you, you are too far further up Bush’s ass to even care about. I don’t care if Ames, Aldridge, and your mother outed her, it’s still a CIA agent, and thus the places she had worked, that were outed. But, once again, you’re so frothing at the mouth, so far into the “but the liberals…” camp, that you’re completely blind.
Then it’s coincidence that almost every form of “ignorance” you fight is the liberals and their “ilk”? You ignore the mistakes of this administration to jump on a bunch of people you disagree with.
I don’t much care what you call yourself, you’re a pathetic lickspittle for this administration. If that doesn’t make you a Republican, fine, call yourself a “Progressive Conservative Uniter” for all I care.
I knew you’d get a tiny, “gotcha” woody from thinking that I support Hentor or lies, or whatever else you’re little fevered imagination comes up with. Hentor actually recently pissed me off with some other bullshit to, I just didn’t care enough to respond to him, and you can ask ElvisL!ves and Dio how much love there is between us. All it shows is that you are more interested in scoring imaginary points than actually paying attention and using your sad excuse for a brain. You’d rather rant about people you disagree with on a message board than rant about the actions of this administration. You are nothing more than a brainless shill.
You have yet to establish that she was “outed” by Ames, other than your bald assertion that it was so. Further, you insist that if she was “outed” by anyone, at any time, her covert status magicly disappears. There is no such provision in the relevent law. As stated before, if one hundred different people violated her status, the one hundred and first is no less culpable.
The “smear” allegation has some substance, in that telling the truth about the Bushiviks is seldom, if ever, complimentary. That is not my fault, nor is it Mr. Wilson’s fault. It is their fault.
Then you will have no difficulty explaining that difference. Proceed. And, to repeat, the CIA apparently believed that she had covert status, hence the criminal referral. Since they are the CIA, one must assume they know of what they speak, your imminent authority notwithstanding.
Nonsense. Armitage could have acted innocently, and the Bushiviks could have acted maliciously, as seperate acts. And, apparently, was.
But of course! Its a lawsuit, they put forth their most ironclad case. Why not?
A lot can be hidden in that phrase “for a while”. It has been suggested that he was her boss only at the very earliest stages of her career, and not recently. If you can prove otherwise, you should, rather than continue to make the bald assertion that it is so. But you can’t, can you, buckaroo?
Really, Scylla, stick to domestic comedy. You’re not any good at this.
You hardly need another liberal lying or whining about things. You have quite enough. What’s really needed is somebody to deconstruct the consistent manufactured lies that the vast throng of left-wing nutjobs is always creating.
Yes. I blame Joe Wilson for this.
Which is different from being convicted.
Not at all. I can safely ignore any malfeasance, errors, or integrity failings of the administration, real or imagined, because there is a multitude of voices here just waiting to hyperanalyze them, overstate them, or what have you.
There is a lack of people pointing out the lies and fabrications of the left.
Personally, you can go fuck off. I see you criticizing me strongly simply because you don’t like my emphasis, yet you totaly ignore the likes of Hentor and the rest of the lying ilk.
Go apply your criticisms to my opponents even-handedly and with vigor and then come and criticize me and I will listen carefully to what you say.
Fail to do so, and I just consider you yet another asshole taking the ad hominem root.
No coincidence at all. If y’all weren’t so fucking stupid and ignorant I wouldn’t need to bother. I’m just merely sweeping the biggest pile of shit.
Again, go criticize somebody else, and then talk to me, or fuck off, kay?
Yawn. Personality attack # 25 from dipshit who can’t debate.
No. I think I cited it. There are multiple cites available, and it’s all pretty well established. Do keep up.
Then I guess both you and I are going to jail :rolleyes:
This is the kind of thing that you need to know already to keep up. It’s not my job to educate you.
No. Another fundamental misconception on your part.
The referral does not construe criminality, merely the possibility. Disingenuous and/or stupid of you to assert otherwise.
So cite me these malicious seperate acts unrelated to armitage, dumbass.
Try not to be stupid. I haven’t made a bald assertion. I’ve cited an athority with experience and knowledge.
As I’ve already noted, here you go, motherfucker:
Bolding happily done by me. Now, explain how this is related to Armitage, you useless idiot.
(Aside: I hope it’s still okay to use “motherfucker” - hopefully all of those who are literally motherfuckers will not jump up to object to my use of this epithet.)
Straight from the RNC’s talking points.No way you’re biased. :rolleyes: And I missed Joe Wilson having the gun to Armitage’s and Rove’s heads while they leaked the information. I also heard Joe Wilson killed Kennedy.
So that’s your standard for ranting about actions? I’ll keep that in mind.
I was wondering when you’d get into the persecution complex.
No, I’m criticizing you for your fucked up priorities, which led me to strengthen my belief that you are nothing more than a brainless shill for this administration.
Here’s me calling Diogenes a partisan hack and a poor debator. Here’s me expressing my low opinion of Elvis, and hereis me saying you had a good point. Another shotat Elvis. Here’s Hentor calling me an asshole. And, here is Hentor coming to Dio’s rescue by calling me pathetic. Personally, I like Hentor, because he’s much more intelligent than the others, but he does have a soft spot for you.
Maybe it’s because I have no friends, but I seem to have pissed off pretty much everybody on both sides of the political fence. I call Dio and Elvis on their shit, and I call you on yours. And just because there’s other shit in the world doesn’t mean you’re not full of it.
Well, unless you want the ad hominem’s to keep growing up and choking your lawn, you gotta get them by the root.
Yeah. The biggest pile of shit is a message board and not the administration’s actions. Again, fucked up priorities.
Now that I’ve done that, and have done it since I got here, can I talk to you? Can I now tell you that you’re a partisan hack, no better than those on the left, with the inability to think critically and with seriously fucked up priorities? Can I now point and laugh at your willful blindness regarding this administration?
Someone once complimented me by saying: “I have sometimes been frustrated when I’ve argued well from a postion of knowledge and received no concession or appreciation for my efforts, and I didn’t want you to leave without it, because your efforts really do deserve high praise… …and I am beaten.” I think I debate pretty well, and so did he.