I don’t know why the term just entered my head, but some years ago I used it for some reason and was told it was insulting to Native Americans. I always thought it was referring to Europeans being the bad guys . As in “here’s some land, nah just kidding, we want it back” Or as Wikipedia describes, accepting something as a gift and not realizing it was actually intended as trade.
So, how do you see it?
When a child over fifty years ago I can tell you how we used it, and it was common to use it back then circa the early 60’s. Definitely we understood that it meant this was how an Indian behaved. And I mean an American Indian when I say Indian. We used it with same definition as the Wiki definition I found when I looked it up:
“Indian giver is an American expression, used to describe a person who gives a “gift” and later wants it back…”
We didn’t see it as racist back then but I can definitely, in these days where we are more considerate of our fellow humans, see that this is a term that would be found offensive. So I’m going to tell you that you would be wise to let the term fade out of usage. Even if the original meaning was what you thought, still, enough people would have been using it the way we used it fifty years ago so in effect it can be thought of as racist.
Parsing it, the more likely to mean “Indian giver” than “Indian giver.” Americans didn’t have much liking for Native Americans and also didn’t see anything hypocritical in breaking promises to them.
When I was a child we used it the same was as Stinky Pete. And I think the origin of the phrase was that the local American Indians didn’t view land as something that was owned, so when they “gave it away” they thought they were offering temporary hunting rights or something
Anyway, I agree that the term should not be used in polite company.
Less than 50 years ago even. I was born in 1980 and it was certainly used in the 80’s and 90’s.
I think that short of blatantly racist/hateful words, most of these types of things were still alive and well until the 2000’s when people started getting more PC. I don’t think anyone thought anything of the term Indian Giver. I know I didn’t associate it with any Native American stereotype, it was just something that was said. Along those same lines is using the word gyp (or jip) to say that someone ripped you off. It wasn’t until the last 10 or so years that I came to understand it was short for Gypsy and was actually a slam on Roma people. I have a feeling I’m not alone in not having any idea that that’s what it meant.
A few years ago the Walking Dead got slammed for saying “eenie meenie miney moe” because the original version of that contained the n-word. Again, I’m guessing a lot of people would have no idea.
I’m always surprised when I hear “and then there were none” or “and then there was 1 (or 2 or 3…)”. I can’t believe that phrase is still being used as often as it is.
This is exactly how I heard it used (and, likely, how I used it myself), and the understandng of the meaning behind it, when I was a kid in the 1970s.
I didn’t know that “gyp” was related to Gypsies, and I had no idea until quite recently that “eeny meeny miney moe, catch a tiger by the toe…” used to have more problematic words. But as a kid, I knew that “Indian giver” was a slam on Indians. What I didn’t know was that apparently “Indian summer” was, too. I always thought that was the sweet final warm days before winter. that we got in this “Indian” nation.
Always heard it to mean you can’t trust Indians. That converse makes no sense, Europeans were known for taking, not giving.
AIUI, the term Indian giver comes from misunderstandings by Europeans of various Indian traditions, such as Potlatch, where gifts are not meant to be kept, but passed on to someone else or returned to the giver.
Sienfeld episode, 1993 (starting at around 4:10)
(Here is a good NPR article on the phrase.)
Also how it was used in the 1950’s and 1960’s in my experience: a person who gave you something as a gift and then wanted it back, which we considered rude and improper; and a dig at American Indians who were supposed to have behaved like that. I don’t think, at the time, that we had any idea at all of differing concepts of types of ownership, let alone of societies that gave things readily because it was considered rude and improper to not give what you were asked for – and that included its being rude and improper not to give back when desired the thing you’d asked for and been given earlier.
I’ve wondered about that one ever since I figured out that “Indian giver” is a racial slur. Was/is it called “Indian summer” because it isn’t really summer, but will shortly revert back to cold weather, and so is derogatory in the same way as “Indian giver”? Or did it get the name because American Indians told the settlers about it, explaining that it probably wasn’t going to stay consistently cold after the first fall frost, but that the warm days following that frost would be a relatively short time followed by more consistently cold weather? – because I’m not sure, and even if I were sure the origins were for the second reason the person(s) I was talking with might think I meant the first reason, I now avoid using the term.
Oh, Europeans were known for giving, all right. It’s not so much that they gave as what they gave: blankets lousy with smallpox. It was straight-up genocide via biological warfare.
Reading through this thread, I see that poxy blankets are not what the phrase “Indian giver” refers to. But European settlers definitely had their own history of malevolent gifts.
Numbers added
I grew up assuming (2), but I now think the actual origin is (1). Anyway, I don’t have a good name to replace that word, but I’ve been avoiding it, too.
Me neither; and I could certainly use one, it’s often quite a distinct season around here (though there’s an occasional year when it doesn’t happen, or only for a day or two.)
Anybody want to make some suggestions? (Those who don’t know the term we need a new word for: a period of warm days after the first frost, but before winter really sets in; often as warm, or nearly as warm, as moderate summer days. It’s not an astronomical season; warm days after equinox but before frost don’t really count. Warm days after it’s frosted in some microclimates but not others may be considered to count – this is a hilly area with large lakes, and the first frost date depends on exactly where you are – I’ve seen the frost line cut across the middle of my fields.)
Yes, those wonderful late warm days, usually in early November, after it’s turned to fall, and there’s been frost, and leaves are falling and all that, and then, suddenly, this gift of the weather gods – a week or two of lovely warm hang-out-without-jackets weather.
Simmertime.
NM
That seems unlikely - Potlatch is associated with the natives of the Pacific Northwest, but the phrase goes back to well before English speakers had any experience with those natives.
I suspect that all the “Indian” phrases have the same origin. Just as the British used “Dutch” as a derogatory adjective implying “false” (a “Dutch uncle” isn’t your uncle, he just lectures you like he is, “Dutch courage” is the courage you get from being drunk, and “Dutch treat” isn’t a treat at all). Using “false” in the place of “Indian” works for
“Indian Summer” (not really summer - just seems like it for a little while)
“Indian Giver” (false giver)
and probably other terms now long since forgotten.\
(P.S. And of course, using “Indian” or “Dutch” to signify “falseness” (and using “Chinese” to connote incomprehensibility as English speakers also do) is a slur, and shouldn’t be done.
great now i have the Ramones song stuck in my head all-day