I don’t know about religions that nobody follows any more, but Germanic Paganism is not in that group. It’s not an unbroken path from the original worshippers to now, but it’s been revived. Unfortunately, as indicated by the topic of this thread, there’s a fairly big racist component in some of the groups that are part of that revival (sometimes referred to as ‘folkish’ groups), which has a tendency to cast something of a pall on the others.
(Look up Asatru.)
Heimdall is a pretty minor character in most Thor storylines. I suspect he’ll be used in the movie as the go-to “main minion” for Odin (Thor at odds with Odin is the typical Marvel storyline, but Odin very rarely goes toe-to-toe himself, so he’ll need a minion for such).
So as a move to reach minority audiences… it’d be a pretty poor one. One of the Warriors Three would’ve been a better bet.
More likely it’s that Branagh needed to find actors who could handle the over-the-top pseudo-Elizabethan dialog, and if you’re already cutting down your talent pool, why further restrict yourself on race? He did something similar, casting Denzil in… um… Much Ado, maybe? (the wretched one with Keanu, too).
I absolutely dont remember it like that. Like I said, I quit reading comics in the late eighties. I’m pretty sure what was established back then (without serious retconning at the time. Except for Odin’s interactions with the Celestials) was that Olympians and Asgardians did have an interest in human worship (especially the Olympians, since they broke a deal with the Eternals to represent the Olympians on Earth and act in their stead). It was assumed that their powers did come from magic/mythological sources, not that they were space gods mistaken for gods (that’s actually the premise of the Eternals). The wiki and Marvelwiki pages dont seem to go for the space gods explanation neither (but on the other hand no explanation at all is presented).
So, what are your sources exactly here?
P.S.: foolsguinea, yeah I was thinking of Wild Wild West, and it so represents that trend.
Colorblind casting in Shakespeare (with the possible exception of Othello) isn’t exactly new, though. In most Shakespeare shows, race is a total non-issue, so as long as the audience can overlook the lack of familial resemblance, it doesn’t matter. The same is true for Thor, really.
As a comic book geek who follows Marvel closely, I can assure you that Marvel’s version of the Asgardians are other-dimensional beings (not “space-gods” exactly — space suggests you could get to Asgard via space ship). They were revered by ancient Scandinavians, but that’s a far cry from the notion that they were physically formed from the Scandinavian’s mythology. The only instance of the notion that Asgardians are the product of ancient Scandanavians’ belief I am aware of was a section of the 2003 non-canon Earth X series Paradise X: Ragnarock.
No, it really doesn’t. Getting Will Smith into your movie is going to cost you millions and millions and millions of dollars. You don’t spend that kind of money for a token black face in your otherwise mayonnaise movie. They didn’t cast Will Smith in Wild Wild West because Will Smith is black, they cast him in the role because he was the biggest movie star they could get for the role - and there aren’t a lot of movie stars bigger than Will Smith. If Smith had passed on the role, it’s not like they would have gone to a Waynes brother or something. They’d have gone to the next biggest name they could get to plug into the role. If the next name had been Jackie Chan, they’d have cast him, instead.
You think Jackie Chan would stoop so low as to act in some stupid western interracial buddy comedy?
Thanks for contributing actual comic-book-fan knowledge to an otherwise lame-o discussion. I appreciate it.
That’s your take, but from what did you gather that? Is there a story that doesnt qualify them as gods but as extra dimensional beings, that happened to be venerated by ancient Scandinavians? If not, then they follow the same rules gods tend to do, in stories. That is that they are dependent on human faith, somehow (after all, Thor’s transformation into Don Blake was decided because Thor was too reckless in Asgard but also so he could experience humanity, and humble himself. What for, if the link with humanity is totally pointless?)
I am not by any stretch a Thor grognard, although I’m a big Kirby fan. But I don’t recall any Thor story where the Asgardians are somehow dependent on human faith. (Does not mean that hasn’t been retconned in, of course).
The summary here is fairly good – describing them as “a extra-dimensional race of beings who were worshipped by the Norsemen as Gods”. With a whole lot of whacky twists, of course. IIRC one of those Kirbyesque cosmic beings was responsible for creating or influencing the Asgardians (that summary says… the Unbeing).
The link with humanity was not pointless, but did not have anything to do with human faith empowering the Asgardians or whatever.
And, of course, comics fans familiar with Kirby’s works easily spot the similarities between several of his creations: the Asgardians, the New Gods, the Eternals. All of them divine-like beings (maybe gods, maybe not, but probably claim so) who’re wielding what is either magic or science-indistinguishible-from-magic. Often people handwaive this as “alien space gods”… although of course the Asgardians don’t live in space, per se. (Asgard sort of just floats in a sea of Kirby dots, really.)
I don’t think that’s a warranted assumption. It’s a fairly common trope, sure, but it’s hardly the default. And it would be particularly inapt to apply it here, because if Marvel Asgardians derive their powers from human faith, how the fuck are they still so powerful in the 20th century, when almost nobody believes in them?
Odin could view humanity as a positive influence on his son, without there being some sort of feedback loop between human belief and Asgardian power. Presumably, the Asgardians found some sort of value in their relationship with humanity, and since the Asgardians are generally good guys, it’s seems unlikely that it would be something as venal as worship. Although in fairness, I’ve never read any of the comics, so I could have the wrong read on what sort of culture they have.
It was never truly explained at the time I was reading it, but there are many references that linked worship and the existence/power of gods in stories about the Olympians. And Asgardians have always been sold as Earth’s leading pantheon but yet always placed in the same category as the Olympians, or the Egyptian gods (I think in one story Odin does act as representative for all the other pantheons to go discuss with the Celestials - who are essentially gigantic aliens with a “Chariot of the Gods” behavior). Human faith put gods into existence, but gods dont need human faith anymore to sustain themselves or their powers.
Some may consider this an incorrect view but so far, no one has been able to quote/cite anything to disprove “my” take (which I believe was in fact Marvel’s take up until the time I quit reading comic books).
But that’s the point. Neither have you provided evidence that faith is necessary. You just go by an assumption you have. Well, my assumption is that, when god are described as an alien race, the author is disclaiming the supernatural. And when a group of people are noted as worshiping them, but not as creating them, it means they didn’t create them.
I’m not saying you don’t have an interesting theory, but you haven’t backed it up to the point where you can convince us (or me at least) that making one guy black is a problem. Especially since there’s apparently a Mongolian Asgard in the comics already.
Hogun the Grim does have some Steppe Warrior attributes, but he is generally described as having Bronson like features, Bronson wasnt Asian. But someone in the thread mentioned the idea of Odin having adopted or taken into Asgard offsprings from a different pantheon. That would be a cool way of introducing some racial diversity in the plot, if they did that in the movie for Heimdall, at least I’d acknowledge that they backed their move with some thought. I still think it 's a pretty stupid move, and that , if they were so dying to have a black actor in the cast, they could have done that with a Midgard character. Or one belonging to one of the many non-Aesir races that live in Asgard.
Anyway, Hogun has legitimacy in that he was always depicted that way in the comics, while Heimdall clearly wasnt.
As for the status of them being according to the marvel wiki page:
“The Asgardians are a extra-dimensional race of beings who were worshiped by the Norsemen as Gods. Their origins are shrouded in myth, making it difficult to nail down the truth of all of the stories written about them.”
Note that this is the continuity as depicted today, not sure at all that it was the case when I read them. Still, the marvel wiki page is going out of his way to not commit itself to any form of concrete explanation. The definition , as depicted, favors neither my take nor yours. I’ll go for the flavor argument then, Asgardians are knee deep in fantasy and Northern European lore, funnily there arent that many black guys in those myths.
Regarding the OP, this Asatruar’s reaction is: Meh. The gods and goddesses are important for the deeds they do and what they can teach us, not for the color of their freaking skin. Besides, the movie’s based on a comic book, not the lore, so what difference does it make, anyway?
And can I just add that I’m thrilled these douchenozzles are from my state. :rolleyes:
Yes, I did.
“The cosmic entity the Unbeing, while impersonating the other cosmic entity Origin, claimed that Origin had directed the Asgardians to seek out Earth…”
If the Asgardians existed elsewhere before going to Earth, they cannot require human faith to exist.
You’re right, I flash/misread that bit, and just above that part there’s:
"The worship of the Asgardians by human beings began at some point after 18,500 BCE. (The first vampire, Varnae, immune to post-Thurian era gods, once stated that he saw the Asgardians emergence: “I watched and snickered as your savage ancestors gnawed their civilization from the bones of the old gods”. Who these old gods were is unknown, although Crom might be one of them.) "
[On the other hand, the following could work: humans believe in a mythology, said mythology appears, with far-reaching past included]
Meaning, gods first, then human worship. So the actual status is your take. You wouldnt happen to know when that became the official version ?
I mostly have no interest in Thor beyond the Kirby & Simonson eras… which is when they shifted the canon closer to the myths, and away from “extradimensional beings the myths were based on”.
But I don’t know of any stories where the Asgardians have a link to human belief. That may be true for Marvel’s Olympians, but wiki says that the Olympians (and some others) descend from Gaia. Which the Asgardians explicitly do not (except for Thor himself). So the Olympians and Asgardians seem to be explicitly different kinds of “gods”.
That wouldn’t be crazy, it’s be Looney.