I can.
::spits on the ground, takes another swig of PBR::
I know the comics always presented characters fighting in an honorable, John Wayne-esque, ‘stand up & duke it out’ style, so I wonder what would happen in a realistic, ‘dirty’ fight? Are Superman’s balls invulnerable to a good kicking by a cowboy boot-wearing bad guy? What about a straight headbutt to the nose? Or feet stomping? Or eye-gouging? Maybe even ear-biting? Or a sucker smash with a beer bottle?
Nitpick: He mortally wounded Karate Kid, KK died by flying into the power sphere that was being used to fuel the planetary teleporter the badguys made by stealing the Earth’s polymer screen.
Also, I haven’t seen the book in forever, but I think he said, “I could defeat Superboy, Kill Mon-El!” Suggesting of course that Mon-El is in the same league as supes, but not quite his equal.
Moral of the story, don’t fuck with Projectra.
Oh, and Ellie May Skaggs a backwoods Louisiana vampire would have defeated Superman without Batman’s intervention. She used her vampiric dominance powers to dull Superman and he made a comment about how fast she seemed and scratched his chest with her claws, and being a magical creature actually caused injury. She was about to bite Supes when Batman, who she thought had drowned in quicksand, impales her on a six foot stake.
I’ve never thought Martians were quite as fast as Superman and Flash. Certainly they weren’t pre-Crisis; otherwise it would make no sense for John ever to have been trapped on Earth. And in the encounter you allude too, Wally specifically says that the White Martian he is fighting–who has assumed a body specifically designed to be a speedster–is not as fast as he. So I don’t think that trick would work on Supes, who can come within a hair of Flash’s maximum speed; they’d be at or near the sames relative velocity in such an encounter.
Of course, just because Nemesis kid thought he could beat Mon-El didn’t mean he could do it. Even magic has limits, and I don’t recall NK ever actually fighting, much less beating, a Daxamite or Kryptonian opponent–or even Ultra Boy.
Speaking of which, Mon-El is a contender. Pre-Crisis, Superbody noted that Mon was stronger than he. That may be because Mon was biologically older (classic Superboy was always around 15 or 16, while Mon must have been in his twenties), but he was a little bigger too.
If we’re talking mythological Thor, he was not quite the strongest being in the cosmos. He was unable to move the ship in which his brother Baldr was buried; the Aesir had to summon a giantess to do it. Though I rather suspect there were exigent circumstances there we don’t know about.
Currently, MU Thor has the Odin-power, which should probably be renamed as Lord-of-Asgard power. I’ve always thought he’d take Supes straight out, though Kurt Busiek obviously disagrees.
Earlier somebody mentioned various magic-users & demons. Supes has taken down demons and wizards in the past, though he’s lost to the latter just as often. Against someone like Zatanna, say, the winner is going to be the combatant who decides to take it to the wire first. Zatanna only wins if Supes doesn’t know she is attacking as he can disable her far faster than she can speak, and he knows she hurt him given the opportunity. Likewise Element Lad. Non-invulnerable, non-superspeed foes only win by sneak attacks.
His rough inspiration- Son Wu-Kong, Handsome monkey king, Great Sage equal to heaven, (half-dozen other titles excluded)- would’ve given him a run for his money back in his adventuring days. Immune to fire (heat-vision), strong enough to wield a 54-ton cudgel like a toy, a lot of tranfsormations & magic, and the ability to make a few hundred clones of himself by chewing on his hair.
He is now a Buddha, and responds to most threats to his life with a polite apology & plea for reasonable discourse.
Related question: Is there any particular reason why Superman is so absurdly overpowered? Or is it just lazy writing?
Because it is a child’s power fantasy?
Lobo can kick his ass
Thing is, Gladiator dealt with the theme in a much more mature manner.
Granted, I may be overthinking things…
Marvel’s Juggernaut could beat him up, if it was a slugfest. Of course, it’s possible Wonder Man could too. Captain Britain?
The Shade could kill him pretty easily, I’d think. But he probably wouldn’t.
Bizarro could if he was focused enough.
Partly because he’s a power fantasy as said. And partly because he’s DC’s flagship character and therefore has to be more powerful than the other characters ( in the DC/Marvel crossovers part of the agreement between the two companies was that Superman wouldn’t lose ). And, power creep. Superman didn’t start out as very powerful; but over time the quest for ever more impressive feats led him to get stronger and stronger and stronger until he could blow out stars by sneezing ( literally ).
Wonder Man is a maybe. He’s harder to get a gauge on as his power levels and actual powers are whatever the writer wants them to be. I’d lean towards no as he’s never been inclined to fight at full capacity.
Captain Britain is another leaning towards no. His powers have become similar to Gladiator’s in that they are confidence based. OTOH, they are also magic based.
I’d go with lazy writing. Problem with Superman is that you have to work really hard to challenge him. We’re pulling out all sorts of names and the number who could beat Supes is still pretty low and loaded with high end hitters. Imagine trying to write for that. You finally figure out a way to challenge the Man of Steel and whoopsie you did too good a job and now you’re stuck. Or the guy before you already had Supes beat uber villain one way and now that uber has figured out what he did wrong, you need a new way.
I think DT hits the nail directly on the head right here. Superman’s power levels had little to do with his design or characterization, and everything to do with his position in real comic history. He’s widely thought to have been the first recognizable “superhero”, (there’s debate on that but I think he deserves that title), and is still probably the most well known worldwide. DC has a very good reason to want to protect his public image and how he’s portrayed in fiction.
The “power creep” factor is very real as well. I think sometimes it’s easy for fans to forget that how we perceive Superman, (and many of these characters for that matter), is a result of multiple generations of writers numbering in the dozens, if not hundreds, interpreting what came before and wanting to put their own stamp on it. So we go from Supes being able to lift a car to lifting a tank, a building, the Statue of Liberty, to him pushing planets out of orbit. It’s simply each successive generation upping the ante. Even his flight, probably his most well known ability after his strength, was a result of power creep as originally he couldn’t fly. He simply leaped long distances, much like the Hulk. This is also what led to the “superpower of the month” syndrome that was so popular in the 50’s and 60’s. Even now, his powers are generally well established and current writers tend to stick to them, but we still get that on occasion. (He can see people’s “auras” Mark Waid? Really? Are you sure you don’t want to rethink that?) But they tend to be ignored rather quickly.
I consider myself a big fan of the boyscout but I just have to say that I think this constant harping on his power levels, (not here on the board of course, but in general), detracts from what has made him endure for over 70 years. Specifically his personality and his, (admittedly vague), ethical code. If you want to challenge Superman don’t give him a physical threat, give him an ethical quandary. That’s when Kal really shines.
Getting off my soapbox now…
An ethical quandary which he’ll lose every time. The Big Blue Boyscout never saw a flag he wouldn’t salute, as Batman put it in Dark Knight Returns.
“You sold us out, Clark. You gave them the power that should have been ours. Just like your parents taught you. My parents taught me a different lesson… lying on this street, shaking in deep shock, dying for no reason at all. They showed me that the world only makes sense when you force it to.” – Batman, Dark Knight Returns
Gee, I can choose my flavor of superpowered facism?
Yeah, I’m an even bigger fan of “The Dark Knight” than I am of the “The Big Blue Boyscout”, and I figured something like this might come up and here’s what I think…
In the “TDKR” Batman is the main character and Supes is meant to be a foil. And he performs that role remarkably well as he always does against Bruce. His natural tendencies are taken to an extreme and he becomes a tool of the government resisting Batman’s crusade for justice. (TDKR is meant to highlight Bruce’s psychology, not Kal’s). That makes sense within the context of the story. But I don’t think that represents a nuanced or completely objective standpoint of Kal’s ethics. Let’s be honest here. Over the last 70+ years Superman has been portrayed in many different ways, some of which are, frankly speaking, completely contradictory. He was a social crusader in the 30’s, (a perfectly reasonable view of a hero of two young jewish men in the late 1930’s), and a representative of the staus quo in the 50’s. (A completely reasonable view of a hero of a corporate flagship at the time.)
Superman is not a definitive, singular character. He’s an idea. An idea that changes with each generation and decade, and even with each particular writer. He’s whatever we want him to be. (An idealized form of humanity, or a representation of an institutionalized form of oppression, either way works. I know which one I prefer.) That he, technically, stands outside of that is what makes it palpable. This doesn’t mean that I expect him to make, at least what I see as, the right decision in every story. It simply means he’s examining the issues in an honest manner and reaching a conclusion that is consistent with his views as determined by the writer at that particular moment.
Much like Captain America he doesn’t, in my personal view at least, salute any particular flag. He follows an ideal and we can choose to accept or reject it as we see fit.
(As an aside, one of these days I’m going to start a thread asking this question specifically of the comic fans among us. What does Superman stand for? Republican/Democrat? Liberal/Conservative or ‘other’? I think for those who chose to respond it could be a fascinating discussion.)
On Preview: I don’t think Superman is a fascist Love Rhombus. Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean, if it isn’t too much trouble?
Wait, I think I just gathered what you meant. Nevermind.
(Yes, Bruce comes across as just as authoritarian as Kal in in that story. I agree with that, if that what you were getting at.)
Let us not forget regarding TDKR that Frank Miller apparently takes a rather dim view of the capes set. In his amazingly awful run of All Star Batman and Robin, everyone but Batman was borderline retarded. I think he just plain doesn’t like Superman and wanted to play him as a pawn of the system. The big blue rube.
Yes, I meant the DKR version of Superman (who, it is later revealed, is acting under duress since Luthor has the city of Kandor hostage against his good behavior