There definitely seems to be two camps on the issue.
“Xxxxx” is properly pronounced “xxxxXxx” based on historical, linguistics, or other factual parameters.
“Xxxxx” is pronounced “Xxxhxx” by 99% of people, so that’s the “proper” pronunciation.
I hope this qualifies for great debates. Creating new topics isn’t my forte.
Most people pronounce “forte” wrong.
No one “decides;” unlike some countries and languages (probably most notably the Académie Française for French), American English does not have a regulatory organization which dictates such things.
The “proper” pronunciation (well, really, the “standard” or “accepted” pronunciation) is ultimately the product of how the word is used by people in everyday conversation – and that can, and does, change and evolve over time.
FWIW, definition of words undergoes the same organic evolution. Even dictionaries – arguably the “source of truth” for words – will revise and update the information on a word’s pronunciation and definition if and when it evolves. Think about it this way: English dictionaries don’t really dictate what the creator believes a word’s pronunciation and definition should be, so much as documenting how the word is actually used.
For example, the word “anxious” traditionally means “worried, fearful, uneasy of mind,” and connotes a negative state of mind; despite this, I’ve frequently seen and heard people use the word when what they really mean is “eager.” Because the word has become so often used as a synonym for “eager,” dictionaries (for example, Merriam-Webster) have begun to show an additional definition of the word as “ardently or earnestly wishing.”
It’s spelled “forte,” but it’s pronounced “throatwobbler mangrove.”
Who decides? I guess I do. I’ve never been going to the kitchen for water: it’s always “goin’ tuh thuh kitchn’ fer some wadder.”
The weirdest bit is the only correctly pronounced word “some.” Some sort of water? Some amount of water? A whole glass or just pertnear full? Dunno, I’m just thirsty sumpn’ fierce.
No one. It’s absolutely random and arbitrary.
For what it’s worth, my wife is a retired elementary-school teacher. It absolutely grinds her gears when she hears a word pronounced or used “incorrectly,” and she can’t restrain herself from audibly correcting it (even if she’s just talking to the television). However, her definition of “correct” is based on what she learned in school, in the 1970s and 1980s, and she absolutely hates that language changes: she sees any such changes as lazy and flat-out wrong.
My 7th grade English teacher said it should be “fort”, but then others have said, well, if that’s because it’s based on French, then it should be “for” or something. In order to resolve that problem, I pronounce it “strength” or sometimes “strong point”.
I’m sure if I look in the dictionary, it will have for, fort, fortay, because what’s what people say, so that’s what it will show. And, someone here will explain that it has been fortay in English since Chaucer used it or something, etc.
in fact, the Merriam-Webster dictionary lists for-TAY first, and fort second, and has a lengthy paragraph on variations in the word’s pronunciation – I particularly like the sentence I’ve bolded below:
I’m sure my 7th grade English teacher grinds his teeth when he hears fortay. In fact, he mentioned it back then (late '70s, I guess?) and it still bugs me when people say fortay, even though it’s apparently just as, or even more, correct.
Seems like a word that’s wisely avoided. I don’t even see what value it adds over “strength” anyway.
You have to figure Algernon pronounces it “for-tay” in The Importance of Being Earnest when he says
As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte.
Which in turn is pronounced “Luxury Yacht”.
It’s more precise, since it doesn’t also mean strength in the sense of being able to lift heavy weights.
“His strength is his strength” makes sense because the word strength is being used in two different ways.
“His forte is his forte” doesn’t make sense because it doesn’t have that second meaning.
I guess. It always just seemed pretentious to me, and with the pronunciation ambiguity, best avoided.
It wasn’t my intention to debate particular words.
It’s the overall two mindsets on the issue. Which have already been expressed in this thread.
Regardless of the word, why do you fell strongly on it’s pronunciation?
Moderating:
Not really a Great Debate, more of an In My Humble Opinion. Moving.
I’m not a linguist, but at the ground level, I suspect it comes down to something like this. One person, for whatever reason, starts talking differently. Maybe they have a speech impediment. Maybe they just think their way sounds cooler. Either way, they start talking differently, and then other people around them start talking in this new way. Eventually younger people, who have only ever heard this new way of talking, consider it normal since that’s what they grew up with. My hypothesis is that last part (young people who have only ever heard some new way of talking) is a lot less common these days due to TV, the internet, etc., and that thus language is changing a lot more slowly. That could be why we even have a notion of what a “correct” way of speaking is.
As one linguistics expert said, “The difference between mispronunciation and pronunciation is time.” Our language is chockablock with words that aren’t pronounced as they once were.
Is there something wrong with saying SEE-gar or SEE-ment pond? Lots of people pronounce it like that?
If lots of people pronounce it like that, then it’s fine. What does Webster say?