Great point. Never forget the line, “my father, why hast thou forsaken me?” To me, that shows that the J-man knew he was about to be sacrificed and was scared to death (no pun intended) like any other human would be. (I know this may be one of those lines that was added in for dramatic effect, but I think it still represents J’s behavior of that particular time and demonstrates this point.)
And I mostly hopped in to say (as many others have) that Dex did a great job with this one, and I think it was just as complete as it needed to be.
(Pre-point notice: what I write is from the viewpoint of a Christian, specifically a Southern Baptist.)
First of all, I think you did a good job with the article, Dex, given the time and space constraints. I’m curious, however, at why you thought that mentioning the blasphemy argument could be taken as challenging the authenticity of the Gospels. Knowing how hard you work at your research, I’m sure you read Luke 22:66 - 23:1:
66At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. 67"If you are the Christ,[4] " they said, “tell us.”
68Jesus answered, “If I tell you, you will not believe me, and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.”
70They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?”
He replied, “You are right in saying I am.”
71Then they said, “Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips.”
1Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. 2And they began to accuse him, saying, “We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Christ,[1] a king.”
<NIV>
Now, as to whether that constitues blasphemy in a technical sense I can not say; I will take Zev’s word for it for the time being. I’m assuming that this passage is one of the ones Dex and tomndebb are referring to as being added later. I can find no indication of that being the case, although I admit I haven’t put much time into it. (I’m writing this from work, and just making this post is more time than I care to take away from my actual work duties.)
Secondly, over the past few years I have become much more cynical about what “scholars” are said to believe. I frequently hear the phrase “most scholars believe”, and what they believe often depends on who is doing the quoting. My faith in archaeology has been shaken, also, at watching some of the childish name-calling and fit-pitching (try saying that five times quickly) that goes on.
Minty mentions certain possibilities:
I’m not sure I buy into the “Q” school, but this is the first I’ve ever heard of the “elderly associate” theory. I’ll have to try to track that down. I appreciate Minty’s use of the phrases “thought to be” and “speculated to be;” it’s surprising how often these theories are put forth as verified truth.
Thirdly, Dex mentions the divinity of Christ and whether that would make him “not . . . fully human.” That matter, of course, is dealt with in the doctrine of the Trinity. As to whether it makes the sacrifice any less, I’m not so sure. Jesus obviously knew what was in the cards for him, and it was no bed of Easter lilies.
Also, there was something worse than mere physical punishment waiting for him, which brings us to jonfromdenver’s mention of one of Jesus’ sayings on the cross: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Aside from being a reference to Psalm 22:1 – I take Psalm 22 to be a very prophetic book – it also reminds us that, as LionessRN mentions, Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself. He went through a period where, for the first time in his life, God the Father was not accessible to him. That his work was accomplished is indicated by another statement, “It is finished.”
And by the way, Zev, if you get as much e-mail as I do, missing one or two here and there is understandable. I have been tempted on occasion to set up a filter to route everything in my Inbox straight to “Deleted Items.” Work would be much easier that way.
RR
A flaw that many of you seem to have made is the assumption that Jesus did actually die on the cross. Many of you have looked at the Jewish and Christian angles, but no-one’s considered the Islamic angle which I believe should also be considered being as it’s also a religion sent down from God (as opposed to Hinduism, Budhists etc).
The Qur’an makes it very clear that Jesus was not killed on the cross, but rather his likeness was passed over to someone else. Jesus himself is still alive in heaven and he shall return and live out the rest of his life naturally on earth after the day of judgement. For those who are interested the verses in the Qur’an are V.4:157-158, and since there’s only one version of the Qur’an, it shouldn’t be hard to find.
The basic story goes that Jesus was supposed to be carrying his own cross up the hill and there was another guy (who’s name escapes me) that was mocking him all the way up. The guards escorting Jesus grabbed this other guy and got him to help carry the cross at which point God transferred Jesus’s likeness over to this guy, and during the comotion Jesus slipped away. Everyone now believed this other guy was Jesus, even though he was (quite rightly) protesting he wasn’t, and thus no-one believed him, and HE was the one who died on the cross.
Incidentally, the Qur’an also warns of the blasphemy of referring to Jesus as the son of God, he was but a prophet, a messenger of God, and nothing more. Jesus never referred to himself as the son of God, and I’m not going to believe anyone who tells me “This is what it says in the bible” unless they can prove that the bible is completely authentic as I can with the Qur’an (which should be proof enough itself).
Jam Shady: You err in your assertion that there’s only one version of the Quran. There are numerous translations of it into other languages. Now if you’re talking about the renderings of it into written Arabic, there are also different versions, although “only one Quran” does describe the one in heaven.
Shady: I thought I said earlier, and perhaps in the report, that there is a huge amount of speculation and theory and interpretation. They’re all from centuries after the event. No way to cover them all in a Staff Report that’s already very long.
I’m sorry, but I believe you are the one in error. There is only ONE version of the Qur’an, and that is the Arabic version. Any translated versions are just that, translations! They are NOT the Qur’an simply because it’s impossible to get a completely accurate translation due to the limitations of other languages. The only way to understand the Qur’an is to learn Arabic and read it as it was delivered. One such example is in the very first verse, where the word ‘Raab’ is used. In English translations it’s translated to mean ‘Lord’, but there is no proper equivilent for it in English. Raab means the One and the Only Lord for all the universe, its Creator, Owner, Organiser, Provider, Master, Planner, Sustainer, Cherisher, and Giver of security which go well beyond the mere limitations of the word ‘Lord’
Now, as for the different versions of it in Arabic, I would love for you to show me one. If indeed any do exist (which I doubt, but it is possible that an attempt may be made to ‘confuse’ the Muslims), then again they are not the Qur’an. You see, the Qur’an represents an everlasting miricle left by Mohammad as proof of the words of Allah. It cannot, and has not been changed in the slightest. The original language still openly exists today, and Islam benefits from having ‘Hafiz’ which are people who’ve learnt the whole thing by heart as another backup mechanism, and they can instantly spot a fake. Thus I challenge you to show me 2 versions of the Qur’an (in Arabic as that’s the only version that counts) that are even the slightest bit different. If you actually read it, you’d also find there are numerous challenges within the Qur’an for someone to reproduce a single verse, just one, in order to prove the Qur’an to be fake, and no-one has yet succeeded. Unless of course you know someone who has, I would like for you to show me so that I may challenge this information for myself!
C K Dexter Haven: Yes, from your point of view this is all speculation, but there are several things you’ve missed or have just didn’t give due weight to. The Qur’an came about AFTER the time of Christ, and as such it’s privy to more information that Christ and Moses (representing the religious beliefs of Christians and Jews respectively) brought with them, and it is widely regards as being THE word of God. After all, Muslims belive in many of the things Christians and Jews do, and ALL their prophets to, Islam is merely the next chapter in monotheism which is the worship of one God. It’s not been proven wrong yet, and there is much information within the Qur’an that could not have been common knowledge at the time, for example a description down to the last detail about the creation of life within the womb - such information was not available at the time of it’s being revealed and has been declared authentic by top American scientists (as regards to the accuracy of the Qur’ans description of the stages of pregnancy). If you care for names, then I’ll cite Professor Keith Moore, author of “The Developing Human” (a book translated into 8 languages and chosen by a special committee in the US as the best book authored by one person) who changed the 3rd Edition of his book when Muslims showed him the information contained within the Qur’an to accomodate this new information. He was later asked on TV whether he believed the Qur’an to be the word of Allah and he said “I find no difficult in accepting this”. He was then asked how he could believe in Mohammad when he believes in Christ and he said “I believe they both came from the same school”. I have more names and examples but I’ll leave them out for now.
And yes, the report was indeed long but I find it an injustice that it didn’t once consider Islam’s point of view considering that the Qur’an came after Jesus, and is “supposedly” (which I put in inverted commas because obviously some of you will question and doubt this - which is up to you but it’s still something that should be considered if a thorough investigation is to be made) the word of the SAME GOD as the Christians and Jews. It’s a huge chunk of the pie and it wasn’t even considered, thus the research in this report, regardless how lengthy, is already flawed. Regardless of whether you belive the Qur’an to be right or wrong, you can’t just ignore it!
Islam, Jewism and Christianity are all very similar religions, they differ because of men who’ve altered and changed it to suit their purposes over the years. Jesus did exist, (although is Islam he is refered to a Prophet Isa), and he did perform miricles, but where Christanity and Islam differ is what happened on the cross and also his refering to himself as the son of God.
Incidentally, one of the (many) challenges in the Qur’an is to call upon your prophets (Moses for the Jews, Jesus for the Christians) and ask them to perform a miricle for you so that you may firmly believe in their teachings. This of course you cannot do, but Muslims may cite the existence of the Qur’an which was left by Mohammad as an ever-lasting miricle. Perhaps you should read it and find out for yourself the information it does contain, and also search for ‘different’ versions (which I have every belief you won’t find) rather than rely on hear-say and what you think you know before disregarding such evidence.
If you do not wish to read the books, then just take a look around you and see how much your religion has changed. Only a few years ago the Church of England decided to allow homosexuals to congregate for fear of losing supporters. How can a religious institution completely change it’s view just like that? And who has the authority to make such a decision? There’s adverts all over the place to join the Church (the most inappropriate I’ve seen yet is a picture of Jesus on a cross with the words “Body Piercing? Jesus had his done 2000 years ago” in an attempt to appeal to the younger ‘market’). In my opinion the Church of England has become more of a business than a religious institution. Islam however, has stuck steadfast to its principles and will not waiver for the sake of attracting more and more muslims. It’s exactly the same as when it was first revealed, and regardless of what you may think, that HAS to carry some weight!
Now I don’t want to turn this into a “My religion is right, and yours is wrong” debate, all I’m saying is the evidence is there and cannot be ignored just because you don’t feel like considering it! Whether you choose to investigate further and find out for youselves is up to you, but the information is readily available and should not be hidden, especially when there is considerable evidence to back it up.
But this is precisely the problem if we are trying to reconstruct the historical life of Jesus of Nazareth. The Gospels date back to the 1st Century C.E., with the last of them maybe as late as the earliest years of the 2nd Century C.E. Other New Testament writings, the Pauline epistles, are even earlier, although they admittedly don’t contain much information about the life of Jesus, or about his death beyond declaring a belief in his death and resurrection. The Qur’an dates to the 6th Century C.E., hundreds of years after the life of Jesus. Naturally, a contemporaneous or nearly contemporaneous account is to be preferred over one which was written centuries later, and in an area (southern Arabia) which is fairly remote from where the events which are being described took place (Palestine). Thus, the Qur’anic account falls in the same category as the Talmudic references of Jesus which Dex mentioned in his report.
Mind you, I already have enough problems with the historicity of the accounts of Jesus found in the New Testament. Throwing in things which appear to be legends from half a millennium later and hundreds of miles away is not going to help clarify matters.
Granted the Qur’an isn’t going to tell the whole life story of Jesus, but it does explain what happened with the cross because that’s a fundamental crux of Christianity which the Qur’an wants to correct. Let’s not forget God didn’t decide that there should be 3 separate religions, we’ll all supposed to follow one religion, but 3 exist because some people haven’t adopted the later ones.
Considering this debate is over who killed Jesus (or now that I’ve arrived, whether he actually died at all), the Qur’an can (and does) explain this!
When considering the Qur’an as a source (and only the Qur’an), I don’t think it’s important where it originated and how long afterwards 'cos at the end of the day it wasn’t written by a man who researched events, it’s the word of God, and as such I don’t think time or place are really a factor in deciding it’s creditworthyness, but rather you should concentrate on whether the whole thing is reliable (which I believe the Qur’an to be) or not!
Again, I’m only making these points with strict reference to him dying on the cross or calling himself the son of God. The Qur’an doesn’t go into the significant details of the rest of his life, it’s just trying to correct errors that man has created (which I’m sure is the reason the Bible came about after the Torah).
Just out of curiosity, as I believe the Qur’an to be the word of God, and the ‘real’ religion to follow, why do Christians believe Christianity to be the correct religion when Judaism existed before it, and Islam came about after it?
It’s fine and dandy that you believe that, but it’s not exactly the point of a Staff Report to merely recount people’s religious beliefs. The point of the column was to report on the known historical facts, and it performed that task quite ably. If you would like to discuss the divine nature of the Qur’an, I would suggest taking it to our Great Debates forum (but be prepared to have your opinion strongly contested by others of varying philosophies).
Ahh, but here’s the thing. Where’s the line between religious belief and fact if they are one and the same thing? Did Jesus really exist, or is he just figment of imagination. Did he perform miricles or not, and fundamentally, did he die on the cross!
At the end of the day, no-one can prove it to be a fact that he did die on the cross because all the muslims of the world will say otherwise (and that’s a hell of a lot of people), and what’s more, they have substantial proof. My point was simple, and that is that the Qur’an should also be taken into account when trying to research what happened due to several reasons I’ve already given and am not about to repeat!
And I’m sorry if you think the column performed the task quite ably, but I think that considering it’s left out a huge chunk of the puzzle (regardless of whether or not it follows or dismisses it for whatever reasons), the report is flawed! I’m not discussing the divine nature of the Qur’an, but I mention it to back up the fact that the Qur’an should be considered a reliable source!
I don’t think that’s a difficult point to understand! Failure to research ALL evidence and information means that the report is flawed (or biased, whichever you prefer), simple as! No-one said to believe the Qur’an and not question it, I just said that it’s there and should be considered (and indeed, I invite you to question it also, afterall you should all be satisfied in what you’re being told is the truth).
Oh, and for those of you who don’t believe it to be the word of God (minty green, I’m looking at you specifically here since you mentioned it), could you please tell me how it came about, and how come no-one’s yet managed to reproduce a single version, and how come it’s still around in its original form, and how come it contains knowledge that simply was NOT available at the time, and how it was recited by someone who could not read or write, and how come many many millions of people consider it to be authentic (not that that should be a factor, you should make up your own mind). Once you can answer me that, I’ll consider a further debate with you on whether it is indeed the word of God or not, but until you can answer that then I don’t think you can really say it isn’t without supplying some form of evidence or reason to back up your statement!
Apologies for posting multiple times, but the form wouldn’t submit and I kept getting a connection disconnected error, and I can’t edit the post to remove the multiple posts, so sorry about that. Perhaps the Mods or Admins can remove them and keep the last one which I added to while I was waiting to try again!
Moderator’s Note: Done. (Generally speaking, when you think your post hasn’t gone through, it’s best to wait and see, because it probably has. Just one of the little quirks of our software here.)
And I would join in inviting you to the Great Debates forum, which is more suited for this kind of thing.
Well, thank you both for your invitation to the ‘Great Debates’ but I think I’ll leave my point stand as it is, considering it’s relevant to this thread and I think I’ve taken it as far as I need to go.
I’ll accept that determining whether or not the Qur’an is an authentic source is another (huge) debate altogether, but my point was merely that regardless of the outcome of said debate (determining its authenticity), it should still be considered at least in some form when determining events that are connected to it, as the death of Jesus is.
After all, what researcher could possibly say “Let’s research the death of Jesus, the ‘son of God’. Well, we have a very famous book, the Qur’an, which still exists exactly as revealed (though debatable), the original language still exists so there’s no translation problems there, it’s widely accepted as being authentic by the Muslim world and certain other parties, it came about after the events of Christ and contains information relating to Christ’s life, and is supposedly the word of God, or Jesus’s father. Hmm, lets just ignore that shall we and pretend it doesn’t exist”. That’s not research, that’s cutting corners!
I would actually submit that this thread itself belongs in Great Debates, because there is considerable doubt over whether or not Christ actually died on the cross! And before any of you say he did, as sure as you are he did I’m as sure he didn’t, so we won’t get anywhere quickly like that.
There is another way of looking at it. If, unlike me, you believe he did die on the cross, do you also believe he was ‘resurrected’ a few days later (which I think is a common belief shared by those who believe he died on the cross)? Would this not be a miricle? And if you can open up your mind to that, why not the authenticity of the Qur’an which is still around today for the purpose of being examined, which unfortunately Jesus is not! Just a point that has yet to be answered, I notice that my points are being skipped around instead of being answered directly.
If God has a sense of humor, He must be laughing now!
Who killed Jesus? If you’re a Christian, Jesus died for the sins of man. That pretty much makes us all guilty, doesn’t it? If we were half as perfect as we often believe ourselves to be, he may not have had to bother.
For the self-rightous who believe they have the “Truth” about God and that their interpretation (yes, to read words is to intepret through an intermediate medium - you have no choice), they are implying they know the mind of God, making them equivalent in Wisdom and Knowledge. That’s blasphemy, so get off your high horse and live your life with what we all can agree God is - Love (yes, with a capital “L”). Or will there be a debate on that too?
I hope you’re not referring to me, 'cos I never once said that I know the mind of God and hold the eqivilent wisdom and knowledge. All I said was the Qur’an states he did not die on the cross, and not in a round-about way either! It’s pretty clear about it. And I for one have looked into the authenticity of Islam for myself and believe it to be authentic - there is no high horse that I am sitting on.
I’ve also cited the verses if you care to find an Arabic translator to translate them for yourselves, but I’m afraid if a sheep is called a sheep, there’s really no confusion. In the same way if the Qur’an says Jesus did not die on the cross quite specifically, 'cos it’s pointing out a flaw in Christianity, there’s no confusion about it and nothing is gained or lost in an ‘interpretation’!
You can’t deny it says that, but it’s up to you whether you choose to believe it or not. I choose to believe it! If you don’t, that’s not my problem - all I’m saying is that it is there!
There’s a fine line, perhaps, between “witnessing” (which is not permitted in this forum) and discussion of the staff report on “Who killed Jesus?” (which is permitted in this forum.)
I’m therefore inclined to give a little leeway, but only a little.
Speaking as Author of the Staff Report:
Separating history from tradition is never easy.
Substantial proof? All you’ve offered so far is the Qur’an, which does not constitute “substantial proof” and certainly does not correct a “flaw.” This is why the discussion begins to draw nearer GD than CoSR.
From an atheist’s point of view, the story of the crucifixion is a hoax.
From my point of view, the Biblical account of the crucifixion is correct; it is not flawed and it is not confusing. The Qur’an, therefore, is in error.
It’s one thing to state the different viewpoints, as is your stated purpose. It’s quite another to begin “witnessing” in this forum, as you have begun to do. I have a feeling this thread will be headed GD-ward soon, and I do not intend to follow it.
RR
The Qur’an is proof enough unless someone can disprove it and explain how it came to contain the information that it does which was not made publicly available until centuries afterwards!
Perhaps you could explain to me why you believe the Qur’an to be flawed with reasons behind your answer, rather than just saying so! I’ve at least given several compelling reasons which no-one has yet answer (and I also made a point of this too that my points were being tip-toed around).
Perhaps I’ll start a thread in Great Debates by popular demand and you’d care to inform us there on how you come to your carefully considered opinion!
Being new to these forums, could someone please explain to me what ‘witnessing’ actually is? Everyone’s telling me I’m doing it, but no-ones explained what it is! And what’s GD and CoSR?