“Don’t let it be said that we avoid the big questions.”
We’ll see…
“First, who killed Jesus is irrelevant.”
Avoiding? Who killed JR is also irrelevant unless you happen to be a Dallas fan – but maybe the Bible is all a dream too, also irrelevant, as would be this report, “if we’re wrong that’s ok because it doesn’t really matter.” Don’t buy it.
“If you’re a devout Christian, Jesus would tell you not to blame but to forgive.”
We are Antichrist if we accept what the Gospels say? More vilification of those who want straight answers, odd one coming from Straight Dope. For example, I don’t hate white people for killing some of my Native American ancestors but I’m not going to pretend that they didn’t do it if there is evidence that they did. I just want the “straight dope.”
“If Jesus hadn’t died on the cross, you’d have no route to salvation. So in a way you should be thanking those who executed him, not blaming them.”
So if I shoot you and doctors find a cancerous tumor when they remove the bullet, should I expect a thank-you card? Nonsense.
“Second, as you say, the question is politically sensitive, to say the least. The accusation of ‘Christ-killer’ was used as justification for isolating, robbing, torturing, and murdering Jews. It’s only in recent times–the last fifty years, perhaps not that long–that leading Christian authorities have reviewed the circumstances and acknowledged the injustices of the past 2,000 years.”
Racism and religious intolerance would still exist without excuses pulled from the Bible. I am against abortion but I won’t abandon that view just because some nuts use it as an excuse to bomb clinics. Rap songs may talk about killing cops but it’s no excuse to do it. Bad people, not what is written in the Bible, Qu’ran, or anything else, are responsible for bad behavior. And from what is written, Jesus never taught Christians to hurt anyone, and that’s what Christianity is all about.
“Third, there is no historical record of the condemnation of Jesus other than the New Testament. The different books of the New Testament give five slightly different accounts. Although the versions agree on the main points, the emphasis and details vary. Each author had his own biases and agenda. The authors of the gospels weren’t writing objective history; they were trying to convert a particular audience, and their words reflect that.”
If Acts, for example, is that biased, wouldn’t it have made more sense to cover up Paul’s initial activities as a Christ-killer, if the agenda was to promote Paul as a leading Christian?
“Their preaching therefore was careful not to condemn the Romans too harshly, but it was OK to blame Jews.”
The Gospels, which were of course promoted by later Christians, clearly indicate that Romans whipped and humiliated Jesus before nailing him to the cross. If that isn’t condemnation, I’m not sure what is.
“Josephus never converted to Christianity and would not have described Jesus in that way.”
Or, perhaps a more Jewish Josephus described Jesus this way…
Now about this time arose an occasion for new disturbances, a certain Jesus, a wizard of a man, if indeed he may be called a man, who was the most monstrous of men, whom his disciples call a son of God, as having done wonders such as no man has ever done… He was in fact a teacher of astonishing tricks to such men as accept the abnormal with delight… And he seduced many Jews and many also of the Greek nation, and was regarded by them as the Messiah… And when, on the indictment of the principal men among us, Pilate had sentenced him to the cross, still those who before had admired him did not cease to rave. For it seemed to them that having been dead for three days, he had appeared to them alive again, as the divinely-inspired prophets had foretold – these and ten thousand other wonderful things – concerning him. And even now the race of those who are called ‘Messianists’ after him is not extinct." -R. Eisler, The Messiah Jesus, (tr. A. H. Krappe), 1931, p. 61. Quoted from the Loeb Classical Library , vol. 9, p. 48.
Who were the “principal men among us” according to Jesus?
Matthew 23:6 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
“In summary, the gospels’ descriptions of the actions of the high priest and his council in arresting Jesus agree with Josephus’ description of how Jerusalem was governed at the time.”
Straight Dope agrees that there is historical basis for involvement of a “council” tasked with bringing Jesus down yet seems to forget that the Pharisees are the ones who held it.
“As additional indication is that the last chapters of the gospels do not even mention the Pharisees. They are conspicuously absent from the stories of Jesus’ arrest and trial. If the reason for Jesus’ arrest was the dispute with the Pharisees, surely they would have appeared at the trial. The conclusion of most scholars is that the Pharisees had nothing to do with Jesus’ arrest and execution.”
*Matthew 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
John 11:47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
Mark 15:1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.*
:smack:
“Assigning responsibility to an entire group of people, whether the Jews or the Romans, is stereotyping, oversimplifying, and false.”
Agreed. The rest of the report is a methodical gutting of the Gospels to further shift most of the blame to the big, bad Romans in order to let Jews off the hook. The Bible says that Roman-Jewish religious and political leaders, and the common people of the day, helped kill Jesus. Since there is no proof of anything, only opinion and belief, I’ll keep an open mind that it may be true.
This will be posted over on live.org for further reference.
