Who killed Jesus?

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Sputter. Do you think I want a pound of your flesh too? I suppose you think I’m naturally good at handling money too… :rolleyes:

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He didn’t. He laid the blame at a few Jews. Please read what Dex has been trying to tell you for the last umpteen times.

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So, Live.org, I ask you plainly. When you say “the Jews” are responsible for the death of Jesus, I ask you plainly, “which Jews?” Specifically.

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Well, I personally don’t believe the Gospels (including Matthew) are true to begin with, but that’s another whole argument. BTW, I should point out to you that by the time of Jesus’ execution, no Jewish court was authorized to carry out the death penalty under Jewish law.

Zev Steinhardt

Hey, the Pope (well, a Pope, I forget which one) apologized for this blood libel thing in the 20th century. Get over it.

Zev: See my last post on “what do Jews look like?” – when asked, I gave the desired response. That’s what you all wanted to hear, right?

For example, are you threatening me with bodily harm by saying that you want a pound of my flesh? You want to be literal about things, let’s go…

Which Jews involved in the death of Jesus were morally wrong? None?

Have any proof that no Jewish court was authorized to execute under the Mishnahs? Point me to some sources, if you would.

The opposite of “None” is not “All.”

Monty: I never said all, you did. I asked which ones?

The Sadducees? The Scribes? The priests? No one–not even the Pharisees?

The problem is, as Dex noted, that the issues that divided Jesus and the Pharisees were not the sort that called for the elimination of one’s opponent. The Pharisees and Sadducees had much wider divisions, but even as they jockeyed for power, they did not generally engage in murder to promote their side. The disputes that Jesus engaged with the Pharisees were of the sort they would wrangle over at dinner, not kill each other.

Now, I have no doubt that the Pharisees and early Christians were not on good terms. I suspect that some Pharisees talked about how to get Jesus “off the street” or something. I would not be surprised that the early Christians got wind of those discussions and perceived a “plot” of some sort–especially in retrospect after Jesus was executed. However, none of the Apostles or Evangelists were at those meetings, so they were “recording” second hand information that they did not really witness. Additionally, after Christianity split from Judaism, the bad blood between the two groups did result in sporadic acts of violence, tilting the early Christians toward an interpretation of earlier events that would have included death threats.

However, that is one of the reasons I have pointed out the widely scattered locations of the recording of the “plot.” If the plot was a simple historical event, then it should have been easy to keep it in the same place in the narrative–particularly considering how much the later Gospels appear to have borrowed from earlier. Yet, the “plot” is mentioned in widely different locations, indicating to me that it was generally “understod” by the early Christians without actually having a basis in fact.

I really do not know what you are attempting here. You appear to be asking me to draw some analogy between the period of the Exodus and the period of the life of Jesus.

Are you claiming that this is somehow prophetic? If so, it looks like a clear case of retroactively imposing prophecy on dissimilar situations. I certainly have never encountered any such “prophecy.” I can see the Moses connection thanks to Mt 23 and Caiaphas would be the successor to Aaron, but linking the Israelites to Pilate’s mob? (They were Jewish is enough for you to make a connection?) Putting Jesus back into the Exodus as an aspect (the Power) of God? You could probably build a nice little sermon out of connecting these things and drawing analogies. Claiming that there is some extant prophecy that links them is simply odd.

As it happens, Matthew did tend to do just exactly this sort of “stretching” to tie Jesus to past revelations of God. As a teaching instrument it can work well. As a narrative of historic fact, it tends to fall short.

Monty: Here, let’s keep up and not keep covering old ground…

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Did I say that? I asked you specifically which Jews you consider responsible for Jesus’ death.

Yes. The Mishna explicitly states that Jewish courts were only empowered to try capital cases when the Sanhedrin sat in the Lishchas HaGazis (Chamber of Hewn Stone) on the Temple Grounds. The Sanhedrin had since removed themselves from this Chamber 40 years before the Temple’s destruction (which was before Jesus’ execution). Unfortunately, I do not know the exact Mishna off the top of my head. The exact reference will have to wait until after Shabbos.

Zev Steinhardt

tomndebb: Then the following passage is false too? Or just a spirited discussion over drinks and dinner?

Matthew 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

I also think it is simply odd that you haven’t considered the other prophetic overtones and connections. If you think and pray on it a while, as a Christian, you may see how embracing God’s Power and seeing the Promised Land is what Jesus as Messiah is all about. I’m not going to try to convince you of anything, that’s between you and God.

Oh, and BTW, Live.org, there are other problems with the “trial” of Jesus as presented.

Besides the fact that no court could try capital cases without the Sanhedrin being convened in thier grounds on the Temple Mount, there are the other following problems (again, I will present the exact source location for these laws after Shabbos):

A Jewish court cannot hear a capital case at night.

A Jewish court cannot hear a capital case on the Sabbath or a holiday (it was Passover, was it not?)

Capital could not be concluded on the day they started. A guilty verdict had to be “slept on” by the judges before being rendered.

A death penalty could not be imposed on a unanimous guilty verdict.

In order to impose the death penalty, the crime must have been committed by two witnesses who warned the accused immediately before committing the crime. The accused must then respond something to the effect of “I know that this is a capital crime, but I’m going to commit it anyway.” There is no record of anything like that happening in the text of the Gospels.

Lastly, there are four methods of execution in Jewish law. Turning someone over to the Romans is not one of them.

Zev Steinhardt

It might be conjecture on the part of the evangelist. It might use “destroy” in the sense of destroying his preaching.

I simply see no reason to treat it as historical fact, given the other discrepancies that have already been pointed out in this thread and others. If you choose to call that “false,” that is your issue.

Which, other than being vague to the point of obscurity, does nothing to argue for a literal/historical reading of the Gospels in regards to the details of the trial and crucifixion of Jesus.

Zev: There is evidence that Caiaphas and Pilate cooperated closely and there may have been hope that these powers would be restored. When it didn’t happen, for whatever reason, off to Pilate for an alternate plan with charges of treason, not blasphemy. This is assuming, of course, that there was need if Jesus died around 30 AD, forty years before the destruction of the Temple. There may have also been other motives of cover-up behind Pilate’s involvement.

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Um…no. The Sanhedrin voluntarily left. They weren’t kicked out by Pilate. Again, my apologies, references after Shabbos.
Zev Steinhardt

tomndebb: Ok, they meant to destroy his reputation. Then when they didn’t, they just forgot about it, letting bygones be bygones…done.

I was responding to the prophetic relevance, we’ve already gone over more real-world circumstances.

Let me ask, if you are Christian, do you believe Jesus rose from the dead? What historical evidence do we have of that? Is that more likely than the scenario of Jesus’ arrest and trial as depicted in the Gospels?

That’s a reference to The Merchant of Venice by Shakespeare. A play. Perhaps you read it in HIgh School. Shylock was a Jewish banker who demanded payment in human flesh.
BTW, the Bard had never met or seen a Jew in his life since we were expelled from England in 1290, due to our part in killing your lord, no doubt.

I’m guessing home-schooled. Probably didn’t encounter Shakespeare.

And what’s the very next thing posted by the dude with a domain for a name?

So why is anybody still attempting to engage this person in rational discussion? He is clearly not interested in doing so.

—Pharisees and “experts in the law” did because he threatened the religious establishment and its control over the masses.—

This is where things get really fishy for me. If you read the Synoptic Gospels, you notice that the Romans come off in a very good light: several positive examples: even Pilate (who other accounts describe as a vicious tyrant) wishes to be merciful, but is to some degree powerless. This in itself is suspicious, especially if Mark was indeed written very soon after the Romans crushed the rebellion and destroyed the temple (probably the most horrific thing they could have done).

It becomes even more fishy considering what we know about the Pharisees outside of the Gospels: namely that their philosophy was much much closer to that which Jesus seems to hold than almost any other group (sometimes with Jesus leveling criticisms at Pharisees that are exactly what Pharisees criticized others for): certainly the Sadducees, who were… the Roman toady faction.

Certainly, there’s not enough here to draw conclusions, but consider this scenario…

Jesus, the real Jesus was actually on the side of the Pharisees, making their sorts of social and theological criticisms of the Jewish leadership, which was dominated by the anti-rebellion Sadducees. He was essentially condemned for rebelling against Rome, and the Romans and Jewish Roman sympathizers had him put to death like most such rebel Messiahs.

His leftover followers, expanding his myth in the wake his death, invert his original purpose: taking the only interperative route they can think of to continue to venerate him: making his death actually the intended victory instead of an unexpected defeat. In the meantime, this causes a split with the Pharisees, who still want a successful rebellion, but whom the Jesus people start to reject as holding the old view of the messiah that is threatening to Jesus’ new meaning.

So when the Pharisees eventually wind up leading Judea into a failed rebellion that ends up getting the Temple, one of the most important icons in that day, destroyed, they fall out of favor in a BIG way: which leads to even more rationale for blaming the Pharisees even as far back to Jesus’ day. In the new Roman dominated Judea, Jesus’s Pharisee alignment is by this time all but washed away (being a Pharisee at this point would be the most unPC position imaginable, as well as pissing off the Romans): instead the story is that the Pharisees were the real problem. In the new Roman dominated culture, the Romans of course have to come off well if the story has any chance of being tolerated is going to tolerate the story, and by proxy, the more pro-Roman Sadducees have to come off moderately well too. The Pharisees have now become the stalwart villians of the story: laughable buffoons that turn violent in the end. This explains why their Gospel portrayal is inconsistent with what we know about their actual positions, and why the stupid views they hold are far closer to what they objected to coming from the Sadducees.

Paul then becomes an interesting case, for there was always something fishy about his claim to have been a Pharisee: his writings show little evidence of such a litterary training.
Instead, the story seems to be that, to impress the Jewish father of his paramour, he had to undertake Pharisee training, but flunked out, and in hatred he turned on them. Instead of being a Pharisee, he was working for Rome against BOTH the Pharisees AND early Christians (which is, as far as we can tell, what was actually going on with the guy he claimed to be working for). This also explains why Paul, who wrote far earlier than the Gospels, is so ignorant of Jesus’ life story: it hadn’t been reformulated yet. All that was present was the split between the Pharisees and the early Christians: which also goes alot to help explain his own major discontent with other early Christians, who were far closer to the old Pharisee view than Pauls’ new anti-Jewish tradition split.

All speculative, of course, but certainly interesting to think about.

Zev, why did the Sanhedrin voluntarily leave the Chamber of Hewn Stone? Could an earthquake around 30 AD have damaged it?

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

What do you think about Yoma39b? Valid? Any alternate explanation?

"Our masters taught: During the forty years preceding the destruction of the Temple, the lot “For the Lord” did not come up in the high priest’s right hand, nor did the crimson strand turn white, nor did the westernmost lamp burn continually. And the doors of the Temple Hall would open by themselves, until Rabban Yohanan ben Zakkai reprimanded them, saying “Temple Hall, Temple Hall, why do you yourself keep sounding the alarm? I already know about you, that you are to be destroyed, for long agao Zechariah, a descendant of Iddo, prophesied to you, ‘Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars’” (Zech 11.1).

Temple doors swing open by themselves around 30 AD

minty green: Regarding usernames…so what are you supposed to be, mouthwash? :stuck_out_tongue:

Is that an example of rational discussion or are you just running out of ways to discredit and provoke me? Isn’t that called…trolling?

Now let’s see if you can understand this. When you go to work on time, are you morally responsible for that, and acting responsibly? Or are you acting immorally? Take your time, don’t be in a rush to reply if you aren’t sure.

Apos: Interesting, we still have the same problems, though. When we look at the written evidence we do have, the conclusion is that Jesus acted alone, not representative of any man-made institution. He wouldn’t buckle-under and so he was silenced once and for all. Or not.