Live.Org: Read the thread, and answer this question, Has your participation brought the participants of this discussion closer to the Lord, thy God? Be careful who you lead, and where they are led. Reply in your heart, and do as you see fit.
My dear friends: I am the one. It is I who have killed Christ, and the blame lies in my heart. For I have been given love eternal, and infinite, from Him, and given back petty vanities. Forgive me, please. God gave us Love, in Christ, and it is those of us by whom that love is perceived, and yet still rejected who are the murderers of that love, not those who simply did not know, or feared the law of the world.
But there is forgiveness, and it too comes from Jesus. He forgives me for his murder.
Triskadecamus: it’s a touchy subject, for adults and those not afraid to examine it. We’re not robots, and I’m no little flower sitting behind the keyboard. Jesus didn’t exactly shrink from his detractors, either. He never said you had to be a doormat to follow him, just don’t tread on anyone else. And I apologize for doing any of that myself.
With that said, I don’t agree with the report in question. To me it was fairly one-sided and capable of causing some believers to doubt. They shared a particular side, and I shared the side of the Gospels in a forum they provided for that. If you have a better Christian response to the report, please share that as well.
While participants may not be any closer to God because of this discussion, it may help others look deeper into issues raised. I suppose we’ll find out in the end…
I’m just about convinced this conversation has left the realm of reality, but what the heck.
When Jesus said that if I were to do anything to another human being then I would also be doing that to Him, he wasn’t saying that I was literally doing so. In any case, if I do something to my neighbour which means that I did that thing to Jesus does not equate to some official in a minor Roman province 2000 years ago doing something to Jesus meaning that they’re doing it to me.
Colour me confused but I’m starting to think your, ahem, assertions in this thread are driving people away from God.
You’re changing the terms of your discussion. That is dishonest. Paul was asked about persecuting Jesus for having driven Christians from the synagogues–not for killing people. You have deliberately changed that to “murder” for your own ends.
With that sort of dishonesty, it is clear that the truth (of any sort) is not your goal.
Simple: given A, then B follows does not mean that given B, A follows. I’d be happy to suggest a couple of elementary courses in Logic if you’re interested.
Not the sort of deity you think it’s okay to label an entire race of people as “Christ killers” to support. As it is though, you’re not God so the validity of my beliefs is not your purview. Capiche?
Evidently you missed the thrust of my posting. I said I think you’re driving people away. I’ve seen nothing in any of your posts to sway me from my faith, of which the validity, as I just said, is not in your purview.
You’re not capable of helping me strengthen my faith.
Jesus forgave them. While still hanging there, no less. If it’s good enough for him, it should be good enough for you.
Besides, what are you so upset about people killing Christ for? According to Christian theology, Christ had to die so that you could be washed clean of sin. If anything, you should be thanking the people who killed Christ.
tomndebb: Paul had a murderous heart and sent Christians to jail, desiring them dead. It doesn’t matter if he used his own hands to kill them or someone else’s, he was still guilty for condoning it. Jesus also said that if you are married and lust after a woman then you are already an adulterer in your heart.
I know that you tend to read things in black and white, preferring not to see deeper meanings and interpretations between the lines, so I’ll let the dishonesty crack go and write it off to a lack of understanding about what Jesus taught. If I am wrong, please clarify.
Monty: Show specifically where I have labeled an entire race of people as “Christ killers” or else issue an apology. This is the only kind of reply you will receive from me until you do.
pldennison: We’re not talking about blame and hate, although that is what the Staff Report and its supporters here want to twist it into. The Staff Report even starts out with a veiled warning that anyone who questions it will be regarded as a Jew-hater, and look at us now! They made good on their threat.
We are talking about who killed Jesus and why the report deviates from the Gospels so much. Do you think that Jesus didn’t want us to know why he died? Should we remove those parts of the Gospels dealing with his death? Do they have nothing to do with what the prophets said about it?
As I said in my first post here, if I shoot you and doctors find operable cancer, should you thank me? That’s just a silly thing to even suggest. I give credit of salvation to God, not to those who killed Jesus.
f you want to get right down to it, your god killed Jesus. According to the Bible, Jesus was put on Earth to die for our sins. Judas was merely a tool used by your god to bring about the arrest, as Jesus already knew. The Roman powers-that-be were tools used to bring about the trial, and the rabid crowd(whoever they may be) was a tool used to bring about the conviction. To fulfill the will of your god, if any of these people had decided to act in an alternate manner, your god would have brought about some other method to kill Jesus.
In my humble opinion, the instant Jesus fortold the betrayal of Judas, Judas was absolved of all guilt.
Czarcasm: if you want to get right down to it, God put all of us here on earth, so every bad thing that happens is His fault, right? No need for any sense of personal responsibility or free will, blame it all on God…nonsense.
Jesus rejected power over world kingdoms in the wilderness, that’s why he was killed. He had the power to avoid death, he chose not to because that would mean becoming part, and even head, of the system that killed him. Thus, men, not God, killed Jesus.
I see things that are written and discuss them without dragging theology into the discussion when theology is not the point being discussed. That much is true. On the other hand, you were the one arguing that we should accept the what-was-written-on-the-page word of the gospels over any other historical source. Now you claim that we have to look “between the lines” to see what you intend.
The phrase “Christ-killer” was a specific epithet applied by many Christians against Jews. You used the phrase in referring to Paul–who killed no one. Now you claim that we need to read between the lines to understand the theological point that Paul had a murderous heart. That is simply not honest. In mid-discussion, you are claiming that your written word meant something different than the same phrase has meant for 1,900 years and are trying to hide behind an appeal to theology.
Sorry, the dishonest claim stands.
If you can avoid such blatant misrepresentations in the future, I won’t bother you on this thread, again.
When the Son Of God says to you, “You WILL betray me!”, that pretty much resolves you of blame, don’t you think? With the powers he supposedly had, and with a god as his father, he could have avoided execution easily. Since he didn’t, we can only assume that his dying was part of some greater plan that could not be avoided by the acts of any man or group of men. When the chess player makes a move, the chess pieces are blameless for the outcome.
tomndebb: the example of Paul, myself, and others being able to change course and become more interested in God than themselves was used as a valid example regarding Josephus; taking issue with my use of the term “Christ-killer” invited me to give a theological explanation. Are you saying that what Jesus said about the true nature of the heart, and not necessarily action, is a mistranslation as well? If so then you need to get off the computer and back to the Bible to refresh your understanding.
If Paul wanted to kill Christians, then he was a Christ-killer at heart, whether or not he actually killed anyone, and he did send Christians to prison where they may have died. Just because you can’t comprehend that, or are simply jumping on the bandwagon to attack every word I type in order to distract and discredit, doesn’t make me dishonest, it just means that you can’t comprehend or are caught up in the mob hysteria running rampant through this thread.
And I am not trying to force you to believe anything. You guys keep trying to peddle these kinds of pre-packaged responses to fundamentalists and they are only going to fall flat when they hit me. I am saying that I believe that the report was not compiled in order to present an objective summary regarding the death of Jesus. I’m saying that I believe other hidden interests are represented here, and I’m saying that I don’t think much of your style of Christianity if that is all true and you are still supporting it.
This is the kind of seeming dishonesty I have objected to all along.
For further information, CK doesn’t have any style of Christianity. You must’ve missed that in the report. As to hidden agendas: you assert that there’s one in the report. Since you’re the one making the assertion, it’s incumbent upon you to prove your assertion. Kind of nifty thing about this site, that.
Monty: I have no idea what you’re trying to say about the term I used, try making sense next time.
Was my last post was directed to CK? I don’t have to prove anything, I have presented evidence against the report, just as the report presents its evidence against the Gospels. No proof on either side. Kind of nifty thing about how the door swings both ways, that.
I’ve been reading this thread with interest, and I have to say, I’m still not sure what your viewpoint is and what it is about the report that has prompted such vehement opposition on your part. You say:
You disagree with Dex’s report on who killed Jesus. Fair enough; if you’ve got evidence, there’s no reason for you not to argue your position. However, when Dex was asked who he thought was responsible for Jesus’ death, he answered:
When you were asked who you thought was responsible, you gave this answer:
This does not seem to differ substantially from what Dex has written, and I’ve been meaning to ask you for a while: just what is your disagreement with the report?
