I’ve got some questions on the Latin mass (I’m 37 and never have been to a mass in Latin). How well do you remember the mass? How was the new vernacular mass introduced in the sixties and how long did it take people to get used to it? Do you think the new vernacular mass worked in its intended purpose of making the church more relevant? Do you have any nostalgia for the old mass?
I attended a Latin mass in the 1980s in Belgium and thought the priest spoke rather well, though it was clear that he and I were the only two in the congregation who actually knew Latin.
vaguely.
I don’t remember it being “introduced”. They just started doing it and it didn’t take anytime to get use to it. You could understand what was being said. Of course I remember the priest mumbling in both languages so there you go. We just wanted the sermon short and sweet.
It was the 60’s. Think hippy’s and guitar players instead of choirs. There was a general atmosphere of modernizing everything including the architecture and dress robes.
I vaguely remember the Latin Mass and actually like it better. That I had no idea what was being said made it seem more mysterious.
When it switched I remember we still did some parts in Latin with the English translation printed under the Latin words.
I was pretty young at the time though and don’t remember a word of the Latin.
Then again it’s been so long since I’ve stepped inside a church for anything other than weddings and funerals I don’t remember much of anything.
I was in college when the switch was made, and in addition to having been an altar boy I’d spent so much time with a bilingual missal that there was no mystery whatsoever. Mostly I wondered if they could’ve found a worse translator (the initial version was incredibly clunky in places).
The biggest change in the liturgy, to me, was symbolic: the priest turned around and faced the congregation across the altar. He was no longer an intermediary between the proles and the Almighty; rather, he was a participant in a shared celebration. I liked it.
'Course, somewhere between then and now (rather closer to “then” than “now”) I chucked the whole thing, but I do remember.
I remember the Latin mass, but I was pretty young. By the time I started Catholic school, I think, it had changed. I don’t think I would remember any of the Latin were it not for singing so many settings of the mass in choral groups.
A friend of mine got married right about the time of the switch and she wanted the Latin mass at her wedding. Well, she got it but it turned out kinda funny. The groom had celebrated a little too hard at the bachelor party and in the middle of things he fainted. The groomsmen were all in the front pew and the guy on the end seemed oblivious (maybe asleep?) so it took a minute before the guys were able to leap up and go to his aid. They sat him in a chair and the service resumed, but the priest put the mass in high gear. He talked so fast it sounded like the chipmonks. For those of us who were not exactly enjoying the whole thing, it was the high point. So, my memory of the mass in Latin is forever a 45 played at 78 (does anyone remember that? did I get it the right way around?)
I’m too young to remember when masses were done in Latin, but I’ve been to several Latin masses - there are a few churches that did a mass in Latin either weekly (the early Sunday mass for instance) or once in a while (a few times a year for one service). That these existed, and for a long time the church that did the weekly Latin mass had attendees from all of the city, tells you that there were some people who didn’t like the switch. Of course, other people attended for nostalgia or to gain an understanding of history and culture.
St. Agnes still does a Latin High Mass http://www.stagnes.net/
Going back to what I said earlier it was the symbolism that stood out. When I was little the church I went to had a “singles” section on each side. The interior of the church was laid out like a cross and girls sat on the extension to the left and boys on the extension to the right.
When the switch away from Latin was made there was an obvious switch from all things gilded to all things simple and it really covered every aspect of the church. New churches were modern looking, the priest’s robes were more reminiscent of a simple carpenter’s look and the choir was replaced by folk singing guitarists. It was done as a whole package and not just a change away from Latin.
I remember it from when I was a kid. I also remember how shocked I was the day I discovered that it wasn’t just the kids that didn’t understand the language. Most all of the people understood not one word. I was dumbfounded.
I am almost 65 and I remember not only Latin masses, but also serving mass as an altar boy.
I am no longer a Catholic, having walked out of the Catholic Church some 50 years ago and never gone back. But it is amazing what sticks in one’s mind.
All of the following is written 100% from memory:
Priest: Eo ad altare Deo.
Server: Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meum.
This part of the mass was the only part of the original Greek retained when Latin replaced Greek:
P: Kyrie eleison
S: Kyrie eleison
P: Kyrie eleison
I also remember: Suscipiat dominus sacraficium de manibus tuus, ad utilitatem quoque nostrum.
Anyhow, I could probably remember lots more if I cast my mind back.
And yes, I do remember the switch to the vernacular. I remember that a lot of people said that Latin sounded “holy” but the vernacular sounded like a bunch of old men mumbling formulas.
Some conservatives continued to attend a Latin Mass that was still offered in my one church in my city. We made a joke that if they anted real athenticity, they should hold the masses in the Catacombs, like the early Christians did, and then they could advertise “Masses in de cold, cold ground.”:smack:
Anyhow, that is what I remember from when I was a Catholic in my youth.
I remember it well, and am still nostalgic for it. Unlike the new translation last year, parishes didn’t baby us into going along with it, and I don’t remember a lot of people whining about it a year later.
The English was okay, but everyone I knew had a missal so it’s not like we didn’t know what was being said. I did like that the priest turned around, but that has nothing to do with Latin or English, and when they introduced the Vigil Mass on the eve of Holy Days and on Saturdays, I loved it, but again that has nothing to do with Latin or English.
It seems to me that the new translations introduced last year resemble the English translations in my missal from the fifties and sixties. I still know the Gloria, Agnus Dei, and Pater Noster, and although this isn’t part of the Mass, I remember O Salutaris, Tantum Ergo, Ave Maria, O Sanctissima, and Adeste Fidelis.
I wish that churches would have an occasional Latin Mass.
I don’t remember when Masses were usually in Latin, but I’ve gotten a couple which were - I understood most of it: advantages of having a language which is about 50% derived from Latin and another that’s even more Latin roots than that 
I’m not a Catholic but I dated a Catholic girl through our high school years. I attended Mass with her every Sunday, when it was conducted in Latin; she gave me a translation book that I found to be very interesting. My thought when the switch to English took place was that the Catholic church lost most of it’s mystery and/or magic.
The fact that it takes mumbling in a dead language to give you the impression that religion has mystery and magic should suggest something to you.
I have no idea how many times I’ve sung The Mass - between Requiem masses and the ‘regular’ mass, it must be over a hundred.
It isn’t the vernacular that I object to, so much as the banalization of the Catholic church’s liturgical music. I would quite happily spend my retirement in a choir which specializes in mediaeval/renaissance music, doing nothing but the masses and motets of Leonin, Perotin, Josquin, Dufay, Orlando Lassus, William Byrd (at least with Byrd, there are masses in English), Palestrina. Sadly, none of this music is performed as part of a church service any more. And it so desperately wants the acoustic and the ambiance of a church; the lobby of a university building just doesn’t cut it.
I’m not a Catholic, so it’s only rarely (friends’ weddings and funerals) that I get to experience the contemporary music. I sang at a friend’s wedding a few years back - we snuck in the Schubert ‘Ave Maria’ (which, while not sacrilegious, is not just a German translation of the Latin 'Ave Maria, gratia plena…), but the price was having to sing the ‘Our Father’ and a couple of psalms. Hoy, yoy!! It made ‘Kumbaya’ seem like a milestone of musical complexity. I couldn’t take hearing shit music like that every week, and I couldn’t respect a God that demanded it, either.
There’s a beautiful elegance to the poetry of the mass in the original Greek/Latin. “Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison, Kyrie eleison.” We have to go through such grammatical hoops to render that as 'Lord, have mercy (up)on us.
I’m of the last heneration of altar boys that had to memorize the Mass in Latin*.
Yes, I do think that the switch to vernacular accomplished the goal of making the Mass more accessible. When it was in Latinb, people had no idea what was being said. Oh, there were dual-language missals which gave the translation, but most people won’t go out of their way to get them. There is significance to each of the statements, and you really should understand what’s going on. People are incurably lazy, and if you don’t give them the information outright, most of them won’t go and get it. I say this as the Agnostic I now am – laziness and ignorance are really no excuse. It’s your religion, for cryin’ out loud. It’s the Bedrockl of your faith and your idea of how the Universe is set bup and what will happen after you die. You really ought to try to understand it.
The recent changes in the responses of the Mass actually bring them closer to the Latin original – “The Lord Be With You” “And Also With You” becomes “The Lord Be With You” “And With Your Spirit”, which exactly translates “Et cum spiritu tuo”.
*Yes, it was the last generation to learn it in Latin. Some people take issue, saying that there are TOO Latin masses today, and they learned the responses that way. Yeah, but it’s not a universal institutional thing. When I learned it that way, Latin was the only option. If you want a Latin Mass today, you have to hunt for it.
Friend Valteron:
I was in the last group of altar boys at our church to learn the Latin responses.
I was serving High Noon Mass and mispronounced “Susipiat.” Monsignor O’Brien stopped the Mass, folded it all up and left the altar. Back in the sacristy, he chewed me out for ten minutes or so and then started the mass over from the beginning.
After mass, I wrote that phrase 1,000 times before I was allowed to go home.
All too well. Sang it almost every day in 7th & 8th grade. Also all funerals. The words still come to me, whether I’d like them to or not.
Requiem in eterna
Your response suggests something to me but i don’t know what that something is.