Who should pay Reparations to African Americans?

[UCBearcats]

@iiandyiiii

The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against black people is to avoid a permanent aggrieved black underclass. The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against Native Americans is to avoid a permanent aggrieved Native American underclass. I focus on those two because those are the groups that I’m aware of that, statistically, appear to be in danger of being a permanent aggrieved underclass.

If you believe any other groups might become “permanent aggrieved underclasses”, then I’d be interested in which other groups you believe this is accurate for, and whether you believe it has anything to do with widespread discrimination and oppression.

Do black who have achieved success and wealth deserve reparations or only the ones that have not climbed up by their bootstraps against all odds?

[DrDeth]

@iiandyiiii

Excellent take down of another straw man!

I also find it notable that you, apparently, can read the minds of all black people and believe that they would react immaturely to “a study and apology”. Have you always thought so negatively about black people as a whole, or only recently? When did you start having such negative beliefs about black people, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

How is it negative to think that if you promise people a check for a $1million dollars and instead just say “Oop’s we’re sorry” they will react poorly? Of course they will, that’s human nature.

[Czarcasm]

@DrDeth

How is it negative to think that if you promise people a check for a $1million dollars and instead just say “Oop’s we’re sorry” they will react poorly? Of course they will, that’s human nature.

Since no one has proposed this, then no one will be disappointed.
Problem solved!

[DrDeth]

@iiandyiiii

Excellent take down of another straw man!

I also find it notable that you, apparently, can read the minds of all black people and believe that they would react immaturely to “a study and apology”. Have you always thought so negatively about black people as a whole, or only recently? When did you start having such negative beliefs about black people, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

And arent you the one that is suggesting that if you dont hand out big checks, we will end up with permanently aggrieved black underclass? Do you think so little of your fellow human?

[DrDeth]

@Czarcasm

Since no one has proposed this, then no one will be disappointed.
Problem solved!

Many people have, including Coates. He is reluctant to name a actual figure, of course. But yes, many articles have been written proposing amounts like that, some of whom were linked to in this very thread- if you’d bother to read them.

[Czarcasm]

@DrDeth

Many people have, including Coates. He is reluctant to name a actual figure, of course.

So Coates proposed a million dollar check…but he didn’t actually propose a million dollar check.

Right.

[DrDeth]

@Czarcasm

So Coates proposed a million dollar check…but he didn’t actually propose a million dollar check.

Right.

Nope, but he did talk about cash reparations, and the figures thrown around on the internet- and linked to right here- do include those figures.* Do *pay attention, please.

[iiandyiiii]

@DrDeth

Many people have, including Coates. He is reluctant to name a actual figure, of course. But yes, many articles have been written proposing amounts like that, some of whom were linked to in this very thread- if you’d bother to read them.

Let’s see a cite, then, with a specific quote, from Coates. Or is this just more baseless bullshit like “scamster” and “racist”? Out of curiosity, why have you made it your mission to spread cite-free vitriolic smears about TNC? Did he steal your lunchbox as a kid or something? I’ve never seen such baseless, vitriolic, and hateful language from you before.

[iiandyiiii]

I’d like to back up for a moment and try to explain where I’m coming from. Richard Parker made an excellent post a couple of years ago that does an excellent and thorough job of explaining the progressive position on current disparities in wealth, crime, and other statistics, IMO:

@Richard_Parker

Maybe it’s worth laying out the basic lefty view of what’s going on with black poverty in America.

The story goes like this: Most black people in the US are the descendents of slaves. By design, they could not accumulate wealth of any kind, and even human capital accumulation like literacy was punished. The period following the Civil War was not much better. For decades, if you tried to get married as a black family and live on your own and grow your own crops, you could expect lynching. If you wanted to work outside agriculture, you had to get state permission to do so in many Southern states. If you tried to do side work on Saturday, you were liable to be imprisoned for vagrancy and forced to work for free for white people. Black lives were marked by white plunder punctuated by white terrorism.

Until WWII, the overwhelming majority of black people lived in the South under Jim Crow. In that regime, black wealth accumulation was, by design, rare and extremely difficult. Barriers to education remained high. If you were smart, hard-working, and ambitious, for the most part you became a preacher or a teacher. Even people that escaped (literally fleeing in the middle of the night in many cases), often found themselves property-less in cities where white landlords could charge them higher rents and white employers could pay them lower wages. When you fought for equal treatment, whites would kill your family and burn down your neighborhood. I assume nothing more needs to be said of the period before 1945 to explain why racist laws were why black people were poorer than white people, on average.

That brings us roughly to World War II. So already we’re talking about the grandparents of the people who are heads of households today. Even putting aside any discrimination after that period, it would be quite remarkable if in the space of a few generations a few centuries of plunder and terrorism was washed away.

Certainly, only the extraordinary were going to be able to do it under the legal regime that prevailed from 1945 to 1975. The white classes, including the newly-considered white, built their household wealth with, well, houses. They got loans restricted to white people and access to neighborhoods with rising housing prices and restrictive covenants for four decades. Beyond the effect on the ability to develop intergenerational wealth, residential segregation also concentrated poverty (and kept black people with middle class incomes in poor neighborhoods, with all the obstacles that brings from job opportunities to crime). And, of course, Jim Crow persisted in less severe ways for this entire period, including in particular in educational institutions and in many fields like medicine.

That takes us roughly to when the current heads of households were born. You don’t even really need to appeal to forms of state discrimination after that period to explain the current disparities. But, in fact, the 1980s and 1990s marked the period when we decided to explode our prison populations and arrest significant proportions of all black men. We decided to keep them in prison longer, offer fewer options for early release, and offer fewer resources while in prison. We policed and arrested black men at rates disproportionate to underlying crime rates, and focused on crimes disproportionately committed by black people while ignoring crimes disproportionately committed by white people. The result was as intended. 20% of Black Floridians are barred from voting. 9% of Black Wisconsin residents aren’t allowed to vote, warming Lee Atwater and Steve Bannon’s hearts mightily.

And all of that is just discrimination enforced by the state. Indeed, I mostly just touched on the negative discrimination. But there’s also the other side of the coin–the billions spent to enrich white people, from race-based work programs, to agricultural universities, to restricted access to the GI Bill, and all the rest. There is also rampant private discrimination by unions, employers, educators, neighborhood associations, and all the rest, continuing through to 2017 (though, thankfully, less in degree than in 1975). Plus, this period of the end of state discrimination is also the period when there has been very little real wage growth. The engines out of poverty that chugged along successfully for three decades have been sputtering for quite some time. Before colleges were desegregated, you could pay for school by working a part-time job. Now, a fulltime job isn’t enough.

Wealth accumulation, where people live, the education levels of children–all these social phenomena have momentum. You have to get them going in the right direction, and then give them time to work. The United States hasn’t even lifted all the forms of state discrimination, much less private discrimination. And it has made almost no effort to affirmatively lift up the people it plundered for so long.

---

I don’t offer that account because I expect conservative critics to agree with it. But it seems to me that if you want to critique it, you have to understand it. When you say things like, “well the Jews did fine,” you betray an ignorance of this history.

So this is the starting point. If you don’t agree with this starting point, then it’s very unlikely that you’re going to feel reparations (or even just the basic research and study proposed in HR 40) are warranted or wise. We could explore that, for anyone who’s interested – what part of this post from RP do you feel is incorrect? If you do agree with it, is there anything you think can or should be done to rectify this situation, if not the kind of study and research in HR 40?

[Shodan]

@Czarcasm

How would you prioritize the different groups?

I would put those with a legitimate claim to reparations at the front. The rest don’t need to be prioritized.

Since most poor people aren’t black, iiandyiiii wants to prioritize black poor people ahead of non-black. I was wondering why that is, and especially why non-black poor people are less likely to be aggrieved if they are put to the back of the bus (:D) even though they are also poor and disadvantaged.

If the idea is to avoid an aggrieved underclass, we can’t prioritize blacks over whites or Asians or Hispanics. Unless blacks are more likely to be aggrieved than other groups in the underclass. If that is the case, I would like an explanation as to why.

@iiandyiiii

The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against black people is to avoid a permanent aggrieved black underclass. The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against Native Americans is to avoid a permanent aggrieved Native American underclass. I focus on those two because those are the groups that I’m aware of that, statistically, appear to be in danger of being a permanent aggrieved underclass.

What are the statistics that lead you to believe that blacks and Native Americans are more likely to be aggrieved than other members of the underclass?

Assume you have a group of ten poor people. Three are black, two are Hispanic, one is Asian, and four are white. What is it about the black people that makes them more aggrieved if their situation is not studied first?

Regards,
Shodan

[Zeke_N.Destroi]

@iiandyiiii

My hypothetical experiment would start with all the living Americans (of a single town/neighborhood) who were harmed by Redlining, segregation, and similar discriminatory and oppresive government policies and practices within living memory. If that were successful, then I’d start looking at the policies and practices that were gone before the lifespan of any living American.

You forgot to say TNC said

[iiandyiiii]

@Shodan

What are the statistics that lead you to believe that blacks and Native Americans are more likely to be aggrieved than other members of the underclass?

For black Americans, polling and surveys such as the following:

How Equal Is American Opportunity? Survey Shows Attitudes Vary By Race

Fewer See Equal Opportunity for Blacks in Jobs, Housing

https://www.opportunityagenda.org/explore/resources-publications/public-opinion-opportunity-and-american-dream-homeownership-and

I’m far less confident in my understanding of the history, polling, and cirumstances faced by Native Americans, which is why I generally focus my posts on these issues for black Americans.

[iiandyiiii]

@Zeke_N.Destroi

You forgot to say TNC said

Actually, you singled one of the few ideas I’ve presented in this thread that is entirely non-derivative.

[Shodan]

@iiandyiiii

For black Americans, polling and surveys such as the following:

How Equal Is American Opportunity? Survey Shows Attitudes Vary By Race : The Two-Way : NPR

Fewer See Equal Opportunity for Blacks in Jobs, Housing

https://www.opportunityagenda.org/explore/resources-publications/public-opinion-opportunity-and-american-dream-homeownership-and

I’m far less confident in my understanding of the history, polling, and cirumstances faced by Native Americans, which is why I generally focus my posts on these issues for black Americans.

Actually what I was asking for was comparisons of people in the underclass, which leads you to conclude that black members of the underclass are more likely to say “I am going to be really cheesed off if I don’t get some reparations soon” vs. whites/Hispanics/Asians who are also members but say “hey, get to me when you get a chance”.

Regards,
Shodan

[iiandyiiii]

@Shodan

Actually what I was asking for was comparisons of people in the underclass, which leads you to conclude that black members of the underclass are more likely to say “I am going to be really cheesed off if I don’t get some reparations soon” vs. whites/Hispanics/Asians who are also members but say “hey, get to me when you get a chance”.

Regards,

Shodan

That is not my conclusion.

[Shodan]

I didn’t ask you for your conclusion, I asked you for your evidence.

Regards,
Shodan

[iiandyiiii]

@Shodan

I didn’t ask you for your conclusion, I asked you for your evidence.

Regards,
Shodan

I gave it to you. Then you asked for the evidence for a conclusion I haven’t made.

Something about a horse and water, I think.

[Guinastasia]

Does this also depend on one’s income? Would rich, famous people like Lebron James or Kanye West get something as well? That strikes me as a little off.

[UltraVires]

@iiandyiiii

The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against black people is to avoid a permanent aggrieved black underclass. The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against Native Americans is to avoid a permanent aggrieved Native American underclass. I focus on those two because those are the groups that I’m aware of that, statistically, appear to be in danger of being a permanent aggrieved underclass.

If you believe any other groups might become “permanent aggrieved underclasses”, then I’d be interested in which other groups you believe this is accurate for, and whether you believe it has anything to do with widespread discrimination and oppression.

So are you now saying that I don’t get a check for the way my great-grandfather was treated because I am not a “permanently aggrieved underclass”? Before you said you wanted to study it.

Or maybe, West Virginians can pull ourselves up by our bootstraps? Is that because we are white or can move?

What makes a person suffer from “widespread discrimination and oppression”? I fear that you are supporting your position by your own definitions. What do you mean by all of the words there: widespread, discrimination, and oppression? Those are so fluid and, once again, subject to any interpretation.

[iiandyiiii]

@UltraVires

So are you now saying that I don’t get a check for the way my great-grandfather was treated because I am not a “permanently aggrieved underclass”? Before you said you wanted to study it.

Or maybe, West Virginians can pull ourselves up by our bootstraps? Is that because we are white or can move?

What makes a person suffer from “widespread discrimination and oppression”? I fear that you are supporting your position by your own definitions. What do you mean by all of the words there: widespread, discrimination, and oppression? Those are so fluid and, once again, subject to any interpretation.

I’m not sure what your first two paragraphs are referring to. I’m open to considering any arguments for study and research you think are warranted.