So you are backing off from this -
because you don’t have any statistics that would show them to be in more danger of being a permanently aggrieved underclass than anyone else.
Regards,
Shodan
No, I am not backing off from that position.
Any skeptics want to respond to post 429? That’s the starting point, and I think it’s an area that hasn’t been discussed much in this thread.
The study and research should be financed by private groups. Why do you insist on hurtling a barrier that could be avoided altogether?
I’m in favor of that too, but that wouldn’t address a critical part – the government acknowledging the harm done, apologizing for it, and then exploring options on how some of this harm might be reasonably addressed.
Options can be explored by private means. This is what happens all the time. A think tank comes up with policies and presents them to lawmakers. If the study finds that harm has been done, maybe the govt will pass the recommended policies.
Sounds good to me. I am in favor of this, and if I won the lottery, would donate a big chunk of my money to such a project.
Assuming RP’s premise is true, it fails to account for the fact that most whites have not accumulated wealth throughout the generations but assumes that blacks would have done so. An argument for reparations also makes this assumption which is overwhelmingly incorrect.
I’m referring to my earlier post about white WV coal miners who were paid in scrip, forced to live in company housing and forbidden from unionizing as was my great-grandfather. Under RP’s assumption, my great-grandfather would have, if not for the injustice, began accumulating wealth which would have been augmented by the work of my grandfather and father and thus I would have been born with a silver spoon in my mouth.
Again with the study and research. You claimed that you only supported reparations for a situation that would prevent a “permanent aggrieved underclass.” WV could possibly qualify as such depending on our definition. In your view, does that fact that my great-grandfather was free to move to say, Kansas, and become a farmer make it his own fault for staying in such a shitty job?
What are the contours of the class? Since whites are not a permanent aggrieved underclass, in your view should I not be eligible for reparations, even though I suffered similar economic harm (under RP’s view)?
In my understanding of wealth statistics, white Americans have significantly more wealth than black Americans, both on average and by the median.
I would have no problem with advocating for studying this. I don’t know very much about it, but it sounds like an interesting topic worthy of further study.
I think it was well written when I first read it, and continues to be now. I still don’t think reparations are wise. This idea that we need to research so we can right all the wrongs of history, that the government needs to apologize, etc. I find pretty weak. Inigyo Montoya doesn’t want an apology, or land, or money. What was taken cannot be repaid like that. Unless you are willing and advocating surrendering the country to those so aggrieved, then it’s not principle that is being appealed to.
It’s not that reparations were never justified. The argument in favor has merit, but the magnitude of that merit decreases with each passing year. It was strongest immediately after the civil war I’d say, when you had those directly impacted, and those directly responsible. With the next generation, the support fades in some way, and so on. In 100 years, all other things being equal, would it still be acceptable to create some kind of transfer payment rubric on the basis of horrific treatment 100 or 200 years past? What about in 500 years or 1000 years?
If there are continuing wrongs, continuing actions that support redress, then those things should be the basis for recompense. At some point the ghosts of the past need to be laid to rest.
But what if our society is so broken by this past and continuing trauma that there’s no possibility of the “ghosts of the past” being laid to rest, at least not without some profound change to the status quo on these issues? It’s exceedingly clear to me that this is so. 50% of black Americans report that they, personally, have been mistreated by police. If this is accurate (even just partially accurate), then it means that our justice system is horrifically racist and unfair, to the point that there could be no possible expectation from black people that they get a fair shake. If this is not accurate, then it means that there is something profoundly broken in the way many or most black Americans perceive the rest of society (IMO the evidence and data shows the former is much, much more likely than the latter). Neither is going to resolve itself on its own. And note that I don’t think reparations are necessarily the path to resolving them – but something akin to a ‘Truth and Reconciliations’ committee is needed… some way for the stories of black people to be taken seriously, not just by select media outlets, but by some authoritative representative of the country itself (i.e. the government). Some whole and complete account of what actually occurred.
Do you believe America has made a good faith and serious effort to document the harm done to black people – something that is easily accessible and available to all Americans (and taught in schools)? I don’t. I was mostly unaware of the scope, especially in the 20th century, of the harm done to black Americans until my 20s, and I had to learn it on my own, from reading and from talking to black people. I knew slavery was bad, and racism was bad, but I didn’t really know much beyond that.
Beyond all that, it comes to this – are you content with the opportunity black Americans have for a successful life? If not, do you think the government and/or society as a whole have any responsibility to do anything about it? If the answer to that last question is “yes” or “maybe”, what are some of those possible things you think should be done?
Today’s article from a friend of mine whom I’ve linked to before.
I agree with his belief that the very word “reparations” is problematic and detracts from meaningful progress. Of course, I suspect many people prefer using a polarizing term… :rolleyes:
I would welcome an alternate rhetorical strategy. If some progressive Frank Luntz told me to use word X because it polls much better than “reparations”, then I’d use word X.
Right - but the question is - polls better with whom?
Presumably the public. I don’t really care what the policy is called, I think there needs to be a full and detailed accounting of the harm done to black Americans, and then discussion on possible ways to make up for this harm, even if it’s just partially (fully making up for it is impossible).
- I don’t disagree and I think that statement is not capable of being disputed. But what I claimed was different, that whites somehow have this greater wealth because of generational transfers where each generation builds upon the last. It only takes poor decision making, an extended job loss, alcoholism, health issues, or frivolous spending by one person to wipe out a modest inheritance.
I’m not sure why in these scenarios we presume that if blacks were free to earn the fruits of their labor from 1700 onward that all of that money would have been wisely invested and grown such that today’s blacks would be the beneficiaries of it. That’s not the case anywhere in the world with any other group. So we definitely would have a gross overpayment if we went that route.
- Again, the studies. My question was not dependent on any study. Are white people in WV a “class”? Is someone who moved to WV five years ago a part of that class? Does the fact that people in WV can move make the idea that we are a class not so? Because of the passage of time and the ability of competent leadership to move us away from coal serve to cut off the causation from past coal related employment practices?
These are questions unrelated to the outcome of any study or research. I am asking for your global view on who should be compensated and for what. If we (we meaning society) can agree on reparations for factors X, Y, and Z, then clearly we should have studies to see who meets that criteria. But we don’t agree and until we do, the study will be a costly and pointless exercise, even if it could be conducted fairly.
But we don’t presume that. We presume, if anything, that in a fair society, black people would have, very roughly, about the same income and wealth on average as white people – so the same chance of poor decisions, bad luck, etc., as white people.
I think it’s very appropriate to put a lot of resources into studying the possibility of reparations (or something like it) for harm done to black Americans and Native Americans. I’m skeptical that it would be appropriate for WV white people, but I’m open to any arguments to the contrary. If you believe this is appropriate, feel free to make that case – but if you’re just using it as a “devil’s advocate” kind of thing to shoot down reparations for other groups, then I’m not particularly interested.
I don’t believe that reparations are appropriate for anyone at all. But assuming they are, why do you believe that WV white people should be outside of that group, or women, gays, Chinese, etc. Why only limit it to blacks and Native Americans?
I wouldn’t limit it. I only told you my personal feelings – I’m open to considering serious arguments for any group. I happen to have talked to a lot of black folks, and read a lot about the history of discrimination and oppression against black people. I feel comfortable talking about that topic. I’ve read a bit about the same topic for Native Americans, but only talked to a couple, so I’m less comfortable, but still have an opinion. I know very little about discrimination against WV white people, and based on what I do know, I’m skeptical reparations would be appropriate. I’d be open to considering arguments for it and any other group, though, from anyone actually putting forward such a proposal.
And how are reparations going to fix any of that? Money isn’t going to solve any of these things.