So, any suggestion as to how much would be enough in terms of reparations?
Just a ballpark - what do you think would be sufficient to resolve any issues, and preclude (at least iiandyiii and TNC) from claiming more is needed?
And any thoughts as to who will receive it? Based on skin color? Proven descent (of any proportion) to a past slave - or someone who was disfavored by some specific roster of government actions?
It would be easy to respond, “I’m just saying we should have the discussion, and I’m not ruling anything out.” But that response would also be bullshit IMO.
Yeah, I know I said I had better ways to waste my time. Apparently, I had underestimated the amount of time I had to waste! :rolleyes:
This is like guessing how much it would cost to go to Mars. Sure, I could offer a number, but it would be a wild guess. And this really isn’t about the number, or even the method, so much as it’s about the process. America needs a good faith and rigorous attempt at studying, admitting, and addressing past harmful discriminatory policies and practices. We’d be much stronger for it, IMO.
As to who would receive it (and this may or may not be individual payments – it could be community investment, or many other possibilities), here are my thoughts (which could certainly change after we initiated the lengthy and rigorous process I am in favor of): Firstly, those living Americans who were harmed by policies like Redlining and segregation (and much more) would be at the top of the list. Then, Americans whose parents (and therefore family wealth) was harmed by these sorts of policies. And finally, those Americans who have suffered reduced opportunity or other harm due to these policies. It would not be as simple as skin color, or genetics, or descent, IMO. I wouldn’t be in favor of proceeding past the first category (the living Americans who suffered harm) until it this was complete, so at the beginning the vast majority of my efforts would be towards identifying these folks and researching their circumstances.
Not sure how good the records are of former slaves and how far back they go. Should we even go that far, is a reasonable question. But records of people living under segregated policies in the south are likely much better. Maybe start there? As to how much… well, how did they figure out how much was the right amount to pay Japanese internment camp victims and Holocaust survivors. Surely we can use that a guide.
Your unwillingness to offer even that weakens your position (IMO). My concern is that ANYTHING that is offered, will be viewed (by some, at least) as not enough. And any official acknowledgment of a debt owed, will encourage such continual ratcheting.
Look at the debates that exist for any wrongful death verdict. You will rarely find agreement as to the appropriateness/sufficiency of any verdict. Yet there is a clear mechanism for achieving finality. You propose a situation lacking any such finality.
Thanks for this effort at clarity. I suggest that it would not be impossible to estimate costs for each of these “levels.” I observe, however, that you propose an EXTREMELY long process, with a great number of additional levels. At each level, the question of sufficiency of reparations would be EXTREMELY complex.
Now, if your goal is to keep perceived disadvantage as a lightning rod at the front of American policy discussions, what you propose would be a great solution. However, IMO if your desire is to actually advantage individuals and groups, and to strengthen our society, incrementally removing institutional unfairnesses would be a better approach. I see no reason why a single unwieldy “reparations” program would be more effective than beefing up and enforcing innumerable existing equality, anti-discrimination, and poverty programs, and enacting new ones. I see such efforts as I propose as far more practical and achievable than what you propose.
What you propose is best for assigning some sense of collective guilt (and concommittent resentment) to some group, and sanctioning others’ feelings that they do not share responsibility for their current position and that they are entitled to some current advantage due to past inequities. Doesn’t sound “stronger” to me.
He suggests a payment process that would alleviate the entirety of the median wealth gap between black and white Americans (~$33K per black American, or about $1.3 trillion total). Over a period of a few years, this would be approximately equivalent to the money printed and distributed by the Federal Reserve for “quantitative easing” (at the time).
I think this is a good faith effort at an estimate, but I don’t subscribe to it at this time because it’s too broad and doesn’t go into detail about the circumstances faced by individuals, even on a regional basis. IMO the most important thing is a national accounting of the harm done and suffering caused, in detail, demonstrating that the country truly recognizes and acknowledges the truly terrible things it allowed and caused to occur. But this might be the kind of thing you’re looking for, and I think it’s worth discussing.
I doubt there could ever be “finality” to this kind of history, with or without an attempt at reparations. But we’ve never even made a good faith and rigorous effort at providing redress for these various discriminatory policies. We did for Japanese-American internees – I think it would be beneficial to at least consider and research it for policies that harmed black people (and Native Americans, for that matter).
What I’m proposing would be something like South Africa’s “truth and reconciliations” program, at least at the beginning. A serious effort to tell the real history of how black people have suffered in America. This has never been done on anything close to a national scale – only occasional museums and private works have attempted to tackle this. It’s much more about demonstrating that the country acknowledges the reality of this harm more about printing checks. I believe (and TNC believes) that without something like this, there will never be any hope that most black Americans will feel that they are truly equal American citizens, with a fair and equal chance at success. So this is about whether I’m willing to accept the possibility of a permanent black underclass (and obviously I’m not). If there was some other way to address this, I’d certainly be willing to consider it, but I believe it would need to especially focus on the plight and suffering of black Americans to have any hope of success.
You seemed pretty sure the taxpayer should cough up because the government made maps. If you are backing off that claim now, that’s understandable - it’s a pretty tenuous connection. If not, then explain how you know that the blame and the payments should fall on the US government rather than the private discriminators, and how you determined the amount and nature of the damage, and who specifically should get the dough.
Truly no offense, but this is just a big bag of worms that a college freshman in a liberal college would trot out. There is really no “there” there.
If you advocate spending trillions, or trillions more if you agree with the point that the great society tried and to some degree failed to address this, you must know what success looks like. You must know what specific ill in 2019 that you’re attempting to fix, and what that fix will look like in 2029. And you have to know how much you’re willing to throw to this fix and for how long.
You just don’t say that we’re going to build a factory to make an unknown product, but we don’t know what we’re going to make, how much it’s going to cost and if we can sell it.
Or in business school terms, you need to “start with the end in mind.”
Thanks. And what do we do for the portion (however small) of folk who lack sophistication/education to manage their $33k or piss it away?
I disagree with the second sentiment quoted above. I believe such efforts as civil rights legislation definitely represented good faith and rigorous efforts. Obviously didn’t go far enough, but I think it disingenuous to discount them entirely.
I find such efforts far preferable to what you propose. Whether you want to call them “reparations” matters not to me. I get the impression that you desire some official statement of guilt. Yeah, my perspective is skewed as an educated white male, but I’m not generally impressed by groups desirous of emphasizing their never-ending status as aggrieved parties.
The most likely outcome is that we do absolutely nothing as a country. Quite obviously. I think that would be the wrong move, and would be missing an opportunity to make America stronger, better, and more just. I’m not willing to accept a permanent black underclass, and I think something akin to what TNC proposes is necessary to avoid this.
But I acknowledge that it’s extremely unlikely in the short term, and pretty unlikely in the medium and long term as well. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to advocate for it.
The existence of a possibly permanent underclass of aggrieved Americans who, due to our history, quite reasonably believe that they don’t have a fair chance at success in America.
In the long term, when we no longer have such a permanent underclass, and there are no significant differences based on race/ethnicity/etc. in terms of opportunity to achieve and succeed.
As much as it takes without doing more damage to the country than the benefit would be. On a relative scale, I think this is as important to the country as, say, winning the Civil War or WWII, so I’d be willing to spend (relatively speaking WRT changes in the value of money) as much as we spent on those enterprises, for example.
Try and provide education and mental health treatment and such, just as we do (or ought to do) for every American who might potentially mismanage their resources and benefits provided by the government.
I don’t discount them – I believe these efforts were, figuratively speaking, pulling the knife out. But IMO we still haven’t healed the damage the knife (representing discriminatory and oppresive policies and practices) caused – pulling it out doesn’t heal it. So we still need to heal the damage done.
An “official” statement of guilt (by the government, not by any individuals) would be important (and has indeed been done before), but is only a part of it. I have no interest in “emphasizing” any “status as aggrieved parties”, any more than those seeking reparations for Japanese-American internment, or the Holocaust, did. I believe that there has been a great injustice well into living memory, and great injustices don’t go away, but should be addressed for the good of society as a whole.
It’s actuallly a serious attempt at a concise answer. These aren’t easy questions, and there aren’t easy answers. If you want to dismiss and belittle it, you are free to do so.
Glad you appreciate the opportunity. As spifflog says, tho, your talk isn’t terribly persuasive - even to many social liberals. In large part, you repeat the same buzzwords over and over. But mere repetition is not persuasive. To the contrary, it suggests a lack of substance behind them.
I know this isn’t Elections, but pushing hard for reparations is quite possibly the only thing that Democrats could do to get Trump reelected. Is that really what is wanted?
You might be right. TNC’s writing was what persuaded me – it was based on a solid factual and historical basis and with reasonable and logical arguments, IMO.
Or perhaps you’re just not ready for this kind of thing. I wasn’t ten years ago, I’m pretty sure. I don’t know. Just doing my best to try and explain my thinking. It’s certainly hard for folks who aren’t personally affected by the sort of discrimination we’re discussing to consider making a sacrifice to address it. History proves this – very rarely has a society truly made up, or even attempted to, for the terrible things it caused and allowed to occur.
I recognize that the politics aren’t exactly on my side at this moment, and I wouldn’t necessarily want a presidential candidate to push hard on this particular issue (I’m not sure about that). But the needle has already moved – we’ve seen that in polling, as well as the simple fact of Congressional committee hearings yesterday. If the needle moved, that means it might continue to move. We’ll see.
