Who the fuck says we can't raise him?

[holmes]

@nocturnal_tick

That is one of the reasons they keep spouting as to why we can’t adopt. Are there any black dopers out there that can help me out with this idea. Are they saying that black culture is entirely different from white culture or that he will be treated like a white kid and suffer from this socially or what? Someone help me understand? We are supposed to live in a world now where colour should have no significance as to how we are treated. We would not stop him from choosing his own culture and exploring that which he wants to explore.

The biggest problem you’re going to have getting advice is, unfortunately cultural the “black” experience in the USA is nothing like that of the UK…though the taint of our problems has stained the rest of the world.

An example being, “black” the USA is a catch all phrase for the black decendants of african slaves who don’t know where they came from, save Africa. “Black” immigrants that have an idea of their native culture, usually don’t call themselves “black”, they refer to their country of origin. ie. Jamacian, Haitian, Dominican etc…their complexion is apparent, but doesn’t tell you who they are.

Color and Culture are different things and the mistake that many “Feel-good” social workers make, is to assume that because a person is a minority, their culture is greatly different than the majority. That may well be the case with recent immigrants, but within a generation or two…the gap usually narrows.

Now, I’m basing this on my VERY LIMITED knowledge of race in the UK…what you need to do is show these pencil pushers, that you’re sensitive to his culture and that means finding out where his family is from. I’m assuming that unlike the USA, many non-white imigrants still have a culture directly tied to their native country…because they weren’t for the most part forced to assimilate…they chose to.

The problem is unfortunately in the old days, there was an attempt by the government to force assimilation, and we’re all still paying for that and you’re caught in the middle…I have a Japanese-American friend, who when he was a boy spend a couple of weeks at his White Southern Grandparents house. By the time his parents picked him up, he no longer spoke Japanese and hasn’t till this day…40 years later. No one knows what they did to him…so I can see the concern that people may have.

The second fear is that Little D won’t be prepared for the reality of having dark skin…by you treating him “normal”, he won’t develop the thick hide that many minorities must develop in order to function in a society that hates them…he won’t understand the “rules”. Of course there are those that feel, that without the burden of “victim” to weigh them down, minorities do better…of course until they get blindsided by the “rules” and don’t have a coping mechanism in place…but that’s another thread.

We are not in a colorblind society and your dealing with social services, should be enough to hammer that point into you. You need to understand that…really. If you walk into that office with a “we’re all equal song in your heart”, you will lose that child.

Race Matters. Color Matters. Culture Matters. Believe it…make them believe you understand. One more truth, you will never be able to understand what his life will be like…ever. You will never be able to prepare him for the first time he gets called a “wog”, you will never be able to prepare for the first time a white girl rejects him or her parents or his “friends”. Ever.

The good news…no one can either…no parent, black, white or brown can until it happens…but if it happens often , you have to be ready to pack up and move. Are you prepared to move into a mixed race or mostly black community? That may be the only choice, to protect him. (talking worst case here)

Okay some advice…
Since all “black” cultures aren’t interchangable, you can hit them with that if they are REALLY concerned with Little D’s “Culture”, then they must find black parents of EXACT backgrounds. A West Indian isn’t interchangable with a West African or a Black person who’s family has been in the UK for 100 years. To lump all Blacks together, regards of their true ethnic origins is well…racist. They need to see Little D as an individual, NOT a black boy. Proving a social worker is acting not out of ‘race consciousness’, but RACISM has caused many a bleeding heart to stop pumping.

Now let’s say that you find out that Little D’s family has been in the UK for over 100 years, then I think you should take the risk and point out that the only thing different between him and any other English boy is the color of his skin…his 'culture" is the same as your culture and by denying him the ability to live in the culture that he is used to and his family has had for generations, they are being racist…they are ignoring his roots and imposing the roots, they think he should have based on their racist views. MLK’s character verus color is appropriate here…what are they protecting?

I agree with the other posters, DON’T get these people angry at you…yet. Try to reason with them. Try to get some anti-racist organizations on your side…It will not be easy trying to get “race conscious” people to ignore race, but hopefully you’ll be able to reach one who can think for themselves.

good luck.

[SpoilerVirgin]

@nocturnal_tick

Will look into that.

Most of the websites dealing with transracial adoption are U.S.-based, but you might check out this one in the UK, which also provides a little bit of background on the issue.

[meara]

Definitely racist. If the little boy were white, they’d have let him have a permanent family already. Because he’s black, they’re keeping him in foster care and forcing him and his guardians to live with the specter of future separation.

All that aside, why is it so desirable to match race? The sooner we all integrate, fuse cultures and reach a nice shade of brown, the happier everyone’s going to be.

[Hyperelastic]

@Liberal

In the US, it could be even worse. The federal government officially recognizes race as an attribute of human beings.

Which part don’t you like, the implication that race is an attribute of human beings, or the way the government uses it?

[TeaElle]

@meara

All that aside, why is it so desirable to match race? The sooner we all integrate, fuse cultures and reach a nice shade of brown, the happier everyone’s going to be.

That’s very nice in theory, not so true in practice, especially not between parents and children, even more especially adolescents.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

I went to the National Association of Black Social Workers. What a bunch of razed 1960-style racists. I didn’t know people like this still existed in nature.

To begin with, you have to be Black to join their little clambake. Then their position papers (or which they got two) was just as described.

Jeepers!

[Omega_Glory]

I don’t know much about culture in the UK, but I do feel that transracial adoptions should be a last resort in the majority of cases in the U.S. I’ll explain my feelings on this, which may or may not be relevant to the way things work in the UK. No matter what country a black person is originally from, if they go out into “mainstream” white U.S. society, they will almost definitely have some experiences that are shared by all blacks in similar positions. All people have their own biological culture based on their country of origin, but the experiences shared by the majority of people in one race means that there is a racial culture too. It is important that steps be taken to keep the child in his own culture. When he grows up, he will have the best chance for acceptance with people from his own culture.

As someone mentioned earlier, a white family might need to be willing to make a number of sacrifices to help their black child deal with these experiences. These are sacrifices that a black family wouldn’t have to make.

Another thing is that adoptees often go through a stage when they feel like they aren’t really a part of their family. This can be very hard on the child when it is obvious to everyone that he is not biologically related to the rest of the household. Especially because kids often comment on the situation, and may make fun of the child because of it.

I don’t think that a child should be made to wait years for a family. If there are no suitable people of a child’s culture out there, then he should be given to a suitable family regardless of culture.

[nocturnal_tick]

@Omega Glory

All people have their own biological culture based on their country of origin, but the experiences shared by the majority of people in one race means that there is a racial culture too.

Now I only agree with this in part. I can understand that being of a certain race a person would want to be in a position where they do not feel like an outcast. But to say that they have to be born into that culture to participate in it seems, to me, absurd. People want to blend in. But that can be done by establishing links with a black communities, making friends with black families etc.

@Omega Glory

As someone mentioned earlier, a white family might need to be willing to make a number of sacrifices to help their black child deal with these experiences. These are sacrifices that a black family wouldn’t have to make.

Are you saying that looking after any child would not require sacrifice? I would be willing to expend as much effort as possible into integrating Little D into a black community. I mean, we only live 20 minutes from a major city in the UK. There are always possibilities for his upbringing to be whatever he wants.

@Omega Glory

Another thing is that adoptees often go through a stage when they feel like they aren’t really a part of their family. This can be very hard on the child when it is obvious to everyone that he is not biologically related to the rest of the household. Especially because kids often comment on the situation, and may make fun of the child because of it.

@holmes

The second fear is that Little D won’t be prepared for the reality of having dark skin…by you treating him “normal”, he won’t develop the thick hide that many minorities must develop in order to function in a society that hates them…he won’t understand the “rules”.

And what would the difference be with raising a black child and raising a child with, say cerebral palsy or even something like HIV? A child who is adopted should be raised knowing he is adopted, IMO, because if anything lying to that child for any time is going to distance him more than acknowledging he is not a “regular” son. We have done this with my brother and despite a stage where he attempted to assert his independence by arguing we were not his “real” family he has had no adverse effects from it. Adoption is a stigma to a child on its own, without race or disability or wharever. And with help from his family he can learn to overcome such arrogant and pointness stigmatism and appreciate that he remains to be a strong, capable equal to all those around him.

I understand that he will be treated differently. He may come home crying one day because he has been bullied about his situation, but then how many of us have never had a situation where we have been taunted about and ending up coming home crying. My mother was a single parent raising me and I got tons of stuff about never having a father. It affected me and I learned to overcome it with the love of my friends and family. D will be affected differently, I understand but that doesn’t mean it will be a situation that we cannot help him to overcome. When I first told my friends we were trying to adopt him, not one even conceived that race would be an issue, even those who were black. Obviously they may feel differently about such issues than the rest of the world but I agree with their beliefs, even if it is done so foolishly.

[Liberal]

@Hyperelastic

Which part don’t you like, the implication that race is an attribute of human beings, or the way the government uses it?

I don’t believe I said anything about disliking any part of it. Saying that something might be bad for you does not mean that I think it might be bad for me.

[Omega_Glory]

@nocturnal_tick

Now I only agree with this in part. I can understand that being of a certain race a person would want to be in a position where they do not feel like an outcast. But to say that they have to be born into that culture to participate in it seems, to me, absurd. People want to blend in. But that can be done by establishing links with a black communities, making friends with black families etc.

Little D was all ready born into that culture. It is not easy to break into a culture that you have been isolated from. If you plan to take steps to make sure that Little D isn’t isolated from his culture, then fine, but not everyone is, and that is why not everyone is a good candidate for adopting trans-racially.

@nocturnal_tick

Are you saying that looking after any child would not require sacrifice?

No, but the sacrifices will be different if you are looking after a child of a different race. As someone asked before, are you prepared to move to a more racially diverse area if it is necessary? Having people that look like you 20 minutes away is not enough. I started a thread awhile back ab out integration in schools, and almost everyone agreed that it was best for children to be in a classroom with at least one other child of the same race.

@nocturnal_tick

I would be willing to expend as much effort as possible into integrating Little D into a black community. I mean, we only live 20 minutes from a major city in the UK. There are always possibilities for his upbringing to be whatever he wants.

I’m glad to hear that.

@nocturnal_tick

And what would the difference be with raising a black child and raising a child with, say cerebral palsy or even something like HIV?

I’m going to assume that this was mis-worded, because it almost sounds like you’re comparing being black to having a disease. Yes, there will be challenges to overcome in all cases.

@nocturnal_tick

A child who is adopted should be raised knowing he is adopted, IMO, because if anything lying to that child for any time is going to distance him more than acknowledging he is not a “regular” son.

I agree, but you do agree that there is a difference between telling the child and telling the rest of the world right? Being adopted is nothing to be ashamed of, but I feel that it is personal information that the child should be allowed to share with his peers if and when he is ready. Trans-racially adopted children don’t get that option.

@nocturnal_tick

Adoption is a stigma to a child on its own, without race or disability or wharever. And with help from his family he can learn to overcome such arrogant and pointness stigmatism and appreciate that he remains to be a strong, capable equal to all those around him.

Yes, adoption does carry a stigma, trans-racial adoption carries even more of a stigma. Some people are strong enough to deal with being “different” in so many ways, but others just don’t cope well. Sometimes a family can help a child learn to deal with the stigma, but you never know.

@nocturnal_tick

I understand that he will be treated differently. He may come home crying one day because he has been bullied about his situation

Again, I’m not an expert on race relations in the UK, but here in the U.S., there is almost no question that he would be teased because of his race at some point in school. I read an article a few years back about white woman who adopted two black toddlers. She said that although she loved them she wished that they’d gone to a black family, because she just wasn’t equipped to deal with it when her kids experienced racism.

@nocturnal_tick

but then how many of us have never had a situation where we have been taunted about and ending up coming home crying.

Okay, this isn’t going to be logical, because I can’t put it into words, but you did ask for opinions(Note: the following is just what I feel. I’m not going to be able to provide any kinds of cites). Racist bullying is just different than other kinds. I’m not going to say that it’s worse, because some people have experienced different things, but it causes damage in a way unlike anything else that I can think of. If your family is willing to do research and find ways to teach Little D to cope, then that’s great.

@nocturnal_tick

When I first told my friends we were trying to adopt him, not one even conceived that race would be an issue, even those who were black. Obviously they may feel differently about such issues than the rest of the world but I agree with their beliefs, even if it is done so foolishly.

Is this the case because you live in a progressive area, or because you have progressive friends? It’s great that Little D will be in a situation with strong support system, but if the rest of your community isn’t ready to accept him, then it might not be enough. I’m all for integration and racial harmony, but I certainly wouldn’t let my child be the one to pave the way.

[Lynne_kilii]

I have a friend who’s entire family is white, except her. She is biracial. She gets asked if she is adopted all the time. I’m sure she has had to deal with issues because of it. Her mother had her with a black man, he died while she was very young, her mother married a white man and had 3 more kids. This is theoretically the same issue, because her mom is white, and therefore “can’t relate” to the challenges her daughter will face. Most people don’t look at a white mother and a bi racial daughter and think family.

It’s not like anyone (sane) is saying that she should have been removed from her mother after her father died. How is nocturnal_tick’s situation really any different? A loving family, and a child that doesn’t look like them, hardships are created, but worked through. The most important part of that is a loving family that will help the child through their issues, no matter what they are.

And just for argument, to try and make a better parallel than illness, if there was suddenly a “gay test” and there was a child up for adoption that would turn out gay, would people protest that child being placed in a straight household? Currently all children are assumed straight, and gay couples still can adopt.

[Quartz]

Definitely speak to a County Councillor - or even your MP. It is utterly racist of them to require the prospective parent to be black. Colour is irrelevant. You might even be able to prosecute them for it (IANAL).

[ivylass]

@Lynne_kilii

and gay couples still can adopt.

Not in Florida. I don’t even think they can be foster parents.

Please keep us posted, nocturnal tick. This sounds like it’s going to be a long battle.

[Omega_Glory]

@Lynne_kilii

I have a friend who’s entire family is white, except her. She is biracial. She gets asked if she is adopted all the time. I’m sure she has had to deal with issues because of it. Her mother had her with a black man, he died while she was very young, her mother married a white man and had 3 more kids. This is theoretically the same issue, because her mom is white, and therefore “can’t relate” to the challenges her daughter will face. Most people don’t look at a white mother and a bi racial daughter and think family.

It’s not like anyone (sane) is saying that she should have been removed from her mother after her father died. How is nocturnal_tick’s situation really any different?

I think that most people would assume that a biracial child would still have a black support base in the form of relatives. As another anectodote, I’ve seen what can happen when biracial child is raised in an almost exclusively white environment, and it’s not good. Now of course, a child doesn’t have to take that path (one of the biracial kids has terribly low self esteem as a result of her environment, while her brother is doing just fine), but you never know. As for the gay issue, since being straight is the “default” so to speak, a straight child would have no problem finding other straights to interact with. If there was a kind of test for gayness, then I feel that, in an ideal world, any gay foster children would be placed in gay homes. It would also be in the best interest of straight parents to find gay role models/mentors for their gay children to relate to.

[nocturnal_tick]

@Omega Glory

If there was a kind of test for gayness, then I feel that, in an ideal world, any gay foster children would be placed in gay homes. It would also be in the best interest of straight parents to find gay role models/mentors for their gay children to relate to.

Why? I understand that in today’s society a child can be confused quite easily about their sexuality but surely there would just be as much confusion being in a family of any sexuality. If a child will end up being gay and you put forth, for lack of a better description, this gay role model to follow surely this would be as misleading as trying to turn a gay child straight with a straight role model. They do not understand their sexuality and in the end it should be a personal journey of exploration. Yes having gay parents gives the child advice and experience in “discovering themselves” but that should not be a reason to have only gay children with only gay parents.

@Omega Glory

@nocturnal_tick

And what would the difference be with raising a black child and raising a child with, say cerebral palsy or even something like HIV?

I’m going to assume that this was mis-worded, because it almost sounds like you’re comparing being black to having a disease.

I didn’t mean race = disease but I did mean that stigma towards race = stigma towards disease. A child with CP would not be expected to be placed to have CP relatives. Their condition will place them in a position in society where they would feel isolated and in need of companionship with those who share the problem. That can be done though the effort of any parent.

@Omega Glory

Is this the case because you live in a progressive area, or because you have progressive friends? It’s great that Little D will be in a situation with strong support system, but if the rest of your community isn’t ready to accept him, then it might not be enough. I’m all for integration and racial harmony, but I certainly wouldn’t let my child be the one to pave the way.

I grew up, with said friends, in North London. There were so many mixed race families that it didn’t matter if it was a progressive area. The fact was that this was an area where sheer circumstance created social acceptance.

Attempting to keep families as culturally connected as possible, IMO, is one of the reasons there is so much discrimination between cultures. Keeping a culture as contained as possible is what isolates us from each other. As soon as we accept that we should “blend” as freely as we wish can we get rid of the facts that have come up in this thread. There will be hardship, obviously, because people do not like change on the whole. But that hardship has to be faced, or we’ll be stuck in the same position in fifty years.

[Omega_Glory]

Well, personal journeys are nice, but it’s is always good to have someone to talk to who has been on that path and succeeded. Perhaps “role model” isn’t the best term, but I don’t think it’s any different than finding a doctor to mentor a child interested in the medical field. I’m not gay, but I would assume that there are some times when a gay person would like to speak to someone who has had similar experiences in life for advice, such as how to tell friends and family about their orientation. The “ask the gay guy” threads were pretty popular, so I would think that gay people must have a perspective on things that the average straight person doesn’t have. Obviously, not all gay children would have gay parents. I’m not advocating removing gay children from straight homes and vice versa, but in situations where we have a choice, such as with foster children, I think that placing kids with similar parents is best.

@nocturnal_tick

I grew up, with said friends, in North London. There were so many mixed race families that it didn’t matter if it was a progressive area. The fact was that this was an area where sheer circumstance created social acceptance.

Well it sounds like it was clearly a progressive area, because if it wasn’t there wouldn’t have been so many interracial families living there. The people make the area, so these families would have been the reason that there was acceptance.

@nocturnal_tick

Attempting to keep families as culturally connected as possible, IMO, is one of the reasons there is so much discrimination between cultures. Keeping a culture as contained as possible is what isolates us from each other. As soon as we accept that we should “blend” as freely as we wish can we get rid of the facts that have come up in this thread. There will be hardship, obviously, because people do not like change on the whole. But that hardship has to be faced, or we’ll be stuck in the same position in fifty years.

I don’t buy that placing children with people of there race has much effect on discrimination. A white family can embrace other cultures just as the same as two white parents with a black child can. There’s plenty of cultural sharing going on in inter-racial marriages and friendships. Yes, someone is going to have to be the one to step up and integrate an area for change to take place. I often think about the sacrifices that Linda Brown and her parents made that resulted in the de-segregation of southern schools. The results were good, but I don’t know how ethical it is to start a cultural movement on the backs of a few children. The child welfare department must concern themselves with what’s best for the child first, then worry about fixing the rest of society.

[Shirley_Ujest]

That’s just messed up.

Being white.

I mean, C’mon. You can’t dance or jump or clap in rhythm.

Poor kid is going to grow up to be an accountant or have a hobby like yatching.

Pathetic.

Anywhooo,

A woman I greatly admire who has 5 natural born children. All whitey’s. , adopted their foster identical twin daughters about two years ago. These two little girls were born to a crack addicted mother who received a buttload of help from Social Services ( I think) that said they would help her with her kids or whatever she wanted. She knew she couldn’t take care of her children ( who are developementally delayed in speech & have hearing problems.) so she asked that they get a great mom and dad. All the real mom wanted was to break her crack addiction. So far, she’s doing ok. Not great, but ok.

Those two little girls have landed in the best possible home. The mom use to teach kids with special needs and they have 5 older siblings whom adore them.

Color shouldn’t matter when it comes to love, trust and family.

I mean, I love my dog and she’s a Labradorian and Canadian.

[ENugent]

@Shirley Ujest

I mean, I love my dog and she’s a Labradorian and Canadian.

Black lab or yellow lab? ::flees::

[yosemite]

@tomndebb

Around 11-13 years ago, (and multiple Google attempts turned up too many false hits for me to provide a link), a young single mother in upstate New York called her local HS department with a question about breastfeeding, confused that she occasionally experienced some erogenous responses. The HS department decided that “something was wrong,” and came out and removed the child for suspicion of abuse. They held onto the child even after being ordered by the court to return her to the mother.

:eek:

I am pretty sure I used to work with this woman’s sister!

It was about 10 years ago and at work there was this woman who recently moved from New York to S. California. We both worked in a store in La Cañada. One day she told me about her sister (who I assumed was back in NY, as all the rest of this woman’s family was) who called HS for advice about feeling aroused sometimes when she was breastfeeding. She said that the sister knew this wasn’t an supposed to be happening during breastfeeding and she wanted some help with it. She saw no harm in calling the local HS dept. for some advice, because that’s what they are there for, right? Anyway, the whole thing was blown out of proportion and the kid was taken away. The whole family was very upset and felt so powerless to try to help. This coworker seemed quite shaken even telling the story so I don’t think she was making it up. She didn’t mention any media coverage about it and it never occurred to me to ask.

Wow. I’ve got to think that this is probably the same case.

[Guinastasia]

I have to ask-do these problems ever come up when placing white children with black foster parents?