Who was Jesus’ real biological father?

So the analysis method will accept the words of the Bible as true, except whem they imply a supernatural solution?

sigh

The Bible does report that well before Mary was pregnant, she was visited by the angel Gabriel. The substance of their conversation was Gabriel’s telling Mary she would soon have a child, and Mary asking, bewildered, “How can this be, since I have not been with man?”

Either we discount this incidence entirely, or we discount only Gabriel’s being an angel.

Which is it?

If the former, we’re back to square zero. No specific person is any more likely than another. We can posit that Mary got pregnant after a wild Nazareth Singles Night dance, and fearing to tell her betrothed, made up a rather unique defense. (“Honey, see, it wasn’t like that. This ANGEL came to me! I swear!”)

In my view, the problem with this analysis is that it leaves unanswered the rather large coincidence that her Son grew up to have such… fame. In other words, what are the odds that this simple deception of Mary’s part would actually bear fruit, so to speak.

Of course, it is possible that all the Nativity events were created after the fact out of whole cloth, in order to bolster the reputation of Jesus.

As should be obvious by now, I don’t think that’s the case, but the reader is invited to draw his own conclusions.

  • Rick

I read somewhere that the term ‘Virgin’ when applied to Mary was that she was unmarried, and some kind of holy woman or Nun, so naturally she couldn’t possibly be pregnant legitimately! And therefore she was pure. And it all stemmed from there.

Or some such crap.

And if so, then it could have been Joseph as the father.


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Schlomo the traveling taylor was suspected. he had a “Sing along with Schlomo” show that year in Nazareth, where he would get people to sing popular Jewish folk songs and have a little wine.

I don’t know where you read that, but I know what you didn’t read analyzing the idea: the Gospel of St. Luke. Mary was not a nun. And although I agree she was “some kind of holy woman,” she was not known as such by anyone before all these events unfolded.

Moreover, her words to the angel remove any possibility that the interpretation you advance is correct. “Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” (Luke 1:34) This was not “how can this be, since I’m not married?” but rather, “How can this be, since I have never known a man?” And yes, she was using the word ‘know’ in the Biblical sense! :slight_smile: See also Matt 1:22, where after discussing Mary’s being with child, we find: “Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” This is contextually weaker than the Luke reference, but in that he was quoting the Old Testament’s prophecy, it’s clear he meant ‘virgin’ in the strict sense, not this meaning you describe above.

Of course, you may debate the angel’s appearance, and whether the entire conversation happened. But Mary was not known as a nun or holy woman; she was, as far as her neighbors were concerned, just a simple Jewish chick about to be married. And her words to the angel make it clear that as far as this birth, she was a virgin before it happened.

Was she perpetually a virgin? That’s a matter of Catholic dogma, but most others don’t buy it, pointing to Matthew 13:55, “Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?”

It would not be unfair to interpret that as suggesting that Jesus had four brothers and an unknown number of sisters. I am told, though, that the words for “cousin” and “brother” in the original Greek were the same, and that the references there were to His cousins, not his brothers and sisters. Again, take it in whatever sense you please.

  • Rick

You people need to get out and get some air - and some books from other cultures :slight_smile:

It is dismaying to me to see throw out Jesus’ teachings if he wasn’t God incarnate. I see Christians more than any others do this.

The only icon that Muhammed left in the Kaaba stone was an icon of Mary, who Moslems revere as the mother of a great prophet of the line of Abraham, and the one and only god.

Krishnamurti and Ghandi revere Jesus for his teachings.

Even some Jews (and I suspect it might be to a greater degree, if it weren’t for Xtianity as an organized religion) see Jesus as a great Rabbi, in the same tradition as Hillel.

They all do this without thinking Jesus was the son of God. Inother words - they read the gospels, not Catholic canon law.

I do as well.

If we don’t “buy” Mary’s story about being told by an angel that she will conceive the son of God, what do we make of Joseph going along with the “deception”? One of the Gospels says an angel appeared to Joseph and told him to be cool about this; and Joseph accepted Mary’s pregnancy by some supernatural process.
I am not a Christian. But I can’t accept the “Mary pulled a fast-one” explanation. Either you buy the whole package, or you don’t.
renee

just letting you know, virgin births have been documented recently. They may be EXTREMELY rare, but according to the references I found them in (which are factual, not out of those tabloids with Goat Babies, and stuff), it is possible.

but that’s just my opinion.


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Great! I’m sure you’re going to share those references with us, too?

The references are of stories told by young girls to their fathers.

Girl: “Dad, I have never had sex with anyone, I swear. It must be a devine miracle.”

Jeffery

GuanoLad: You may be right. I was thinking along those lines myself. Is there any reference to a virgin other than what we think? I guess, Bricker pretty well answered that one. Thank you.

I must say that I am neither Christian, Moslem nor a Jew and am trying to understand this from pure historical interest. Jesus was an interesting man and his philosophies did have an effect on my life. RobRoy is right. Gandhi and Krishnamurti did revere Jesus although they did not count themselves as Christian.
No matter how you look at things, you cannot ignore the man.

Even if Christ was NOT born through the Immaculate Conception, and even if Mary had other children after Jesus through Jo, it is possible that Jesus being the first could have been conceived outside ‘matrimony’. Is this such a big deal? Why then the hoopla about the VB? Does it matter? Was the VB theory tacked on after his death? Was the VB part of an even more ancient prophecy? Or were the events given a spin to match these events?
If so, is it possible that he had a purely normal childhood with his parents and siblings and everything was tacked on after his death to ‘polish up’ and make interesting his earlier life?

Brooklyn44: I guess that is the question I have been asking myself, ‘did Mary pull a fast one”? Why DID Joseph go along with the whole deal? are there any thoughts?.. and no, I don’t have to buy the whole package. Like I said before, you can buy the man and what he stood for without the trappings.
StrTrkr777 – you’re hilarious.

sure, just gimmie a chance to go find the book, and I’ll get back to ya (It’s hidden up in my mom’s bookcase somewhere) (And no, this is not an attempt to duck out on getting info when I don’t know what I’m talking about - I do know what I’m talking about)

nice try StrTrkr777, but this girl was a legit virgin…just let me go get the reference

Indeed it was.

Matthew is actually quoting the Old testament - see Isiash 7:10ff:

So one of the prophecies for the coming of the Messiah was a virgin conceiving and giving birth.

  • Rick

Even if Christ was NOT born through the Immaculate Conception, and even if Mary had other children after Jesus through Jo, it is possible that Jesus being the first could have been conceived outside ‘matrimony’. Is this such a big deal? Why then the hoopla about the VB? Does it matter? Was the VB theory tacked on after his death? Was the VB part of an even more ancient prophecy? Or were the events given a spin to match these events?
If so, is it possible that he had a purely normal childhood with his parents and siblings and everything was tacked on after his death to ‘polish up’ and make interesting his earlier life?

Brooklyn44: I guess that is the question I have been asking myself, ‘did Mary pull a fast one”? Why DID Joseph go along with the whole deal? are there any thoughts?.. and no, I don’t have to buy the whole package. Like I said before, you can buy the man and what he stood for without the trappings.
StrTrkr777 – you’re hilarious.**
[/QUOTE]

We all need to learn more about other people’s beliefs.
The doctrine of Immaculate Conception is a fairly recent addition to the dogma. It is not about the virgin birth, but rather about establishing the absolute purity of Mary. It holds that Mary was born without the taint of original sin, so that she could be the mother of god.
renee

oops,
I don’t wanna try anyone’s patience and i’ve observed that others have had this problem.
I clicked on what I thought would enable me to quote toecutter in bold-face.

sorry,
renee

Thanks Bricker, I think I am getting somewhere.
So the sequence of events could have been:

  1. Ancient Prophecy Sez: There will be a virgin birth – that will be one of the signs of his cumming.
  2. Jesus is born to a normal family and leads a perfectly normal childhood
  3. Jesus grows up as a wise philosopher and teacher – folk say: Hey what-a-guy!
  4. Crucifixion/death
  5. Paul and Joseph bicker about future of ministry
  6. PR machine Kicks in – Spin doctors called in
  7. Life embellished – VB part put in.

Does this sound reasonable?

Just to throw in a fact, Jesus did have siblings. I know I’ve heard of him having at least a couple other brothers. So Mary did have other children.

Well… it is certainly possible. I mean, after 2,000 years, Mary’s journal is not likely to surface. (“Dear Diary: Guess what? Today I was visited by an ANGEL!”)

In other words, definitively showing what happened first is not likely. If your approach is that Christ was indeed divine, then it makes sense that the announcement preceded the fame; if not, then it might make more sense to posit a retroactive airbrushing of the story.

And, as I’ve said before, I’m on the divine side of the camp. :slight_smile:

  • Rick

aha, that’s one of the problems.
Just what is a “fact?” So liitle is known about the historical Jesus (ne Joshua). The New Testament sez Jesus, on the cross, says to his mother that she should regard the man accompanying her as her son. Just what does that mean?
Someone higher up on this string sed something about putting aside Catholic dogma. Well, again, if you accept the notion of a virgin birth of the son of god, then why draw the line at her perpetual virginity? After all, if one’s faith (and that’s the key) preaching a supernatural event, then all improbalilites are along for the ride. That’s why it’s called faith and not history or science.
renee,

Robroy, I understand your point, but I don’t quite understand what you mean when you refer to the doctrine of Jesus as the Son of God stemming from “Catholic canon law” rather than a reading of the Gospels.

It’s pretty clear (at least to me) from a reading of the Gospels that Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God, and not just a prophet or a more spiritually enlightened being. He had plenty of opportunities to disabuse people of that notion when they said it about him, and was, in fact, the reason he was tried and executed. If he didn’t believe he was the Son of God he could have cleared up the whole misunderstanding and lived to a ripe old age.

Therefore, Jesus did believe he was the Son of God. Therefore (as C. S. Lewis has pointed out), we have to conclude one of three things:

  1. He was a liar
  2. He was crazy
  3. He was the Son of God

No other options exist. Those who are content to regard him as nothing more than a prophet are ignoring most of what the Gospels write about what he led his contemporaries to believe about him. This is intellectually unfair.


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