Gotta disagree Askia, though I congratulate you on your prodigious quoting - but it is in the quotes that we find Destiny’s impotence. The bit about being forced to choose many times in his garden - that’s reflective of his role. He does not create your Destiny. He does not choose for you. He’s a glorified secretary.
Well you GOTTA congratulate me on my quoting – it means I’m not pulling this stuff out my @$$.
- No, Destiny does not choose for you… but if you think about it: all the Endless are about choice. Death does not choose your death – although she will attend it and may amend it. Dream does not choose your dreams-- unless you go to seek his counsel. Desire does not choose your love – unless s/he decides to meddle. Same for Destiny … unless you find yourself seeking him out. Destruction does not abate your end, unless you seek him out.
Of course, if you choose to seek out Destiny he may not tell you what you want to hear. All things to him are pre-ordained, immutable and done. You make the choice: it’s just that Destiny already knows what they are.
The existence of parallel universe wuld seem to indicate that the scope of Destiny’s power lies within each every minute permutation that can be conceived. Every billion trillion entity in the universe EACH makes a billion trillion decisions that Destiny already knows is going to happen.
- I was all set to get a bit offended by this characterization until I realized that a secretary is actually a very powerful person, depending on the scope of their responsibilities. They arrange appointments, set schedules, invite and deny entry to people and places of power; see to the arrival and dispatch of communications, people, equipment. The parable about the consequences for want of a nail sums up the power of fate precisely. And Destiny of the Endless is responsible for everything – secretary for the running of Creation. Even if he is a glorified secretary, if you find yourself one of the last two anthropomorphic personifications in existence at the end of everything, that’s gotta count for smething.
Put it another way: the existence of immortals proves you can cheat Death. But can you, if every possible variation of your actions is known by him, truly cheat Fate?
As essentially the embodiment of “shit happens”, I’m going to go with Destiny.
I don’t like being called back to same thread twice. You will play nice or you will not play.
If you think a poster is “baiting” (I take it that just means “trolling”?), your proper course of action is to hit the REPORT THIS POST button (the little exclamation point in the red triangle in the upper right corner of each post) and notify a Moderator. You do not make the accusation yourself. This has been our SDMB rule for a lonnnnng time. Cisco, you’ve been around long enough to know this. This is now your second warning in five years.
I strongly suggest you not try to break this record.
Since no one else has posted, I amend this rather than add another post. I have been rightly called to task for not also whomping Agent Foxtrot for continuing to make the “trolling” accusation after my warning. I now correct that error on my part: Agent Foxtrot, when I told Cisco not to do this any more, that wasn’t just a personally directed intervention. Just because I didn’t address you personally, doesn’t mean that the rules don’t apply to you. Get it?
My perspective is that Destiny is the only one of the 7 who can’t meddle.
And he’s powerless to do anything with that knowledge.
You can’t cheat Death, though. Some people just have a longer lifetime than others. At the end, there is only Death. ‘Cheating’ Destiny would be moot, as he’s completely powerless to interfere with your life in any way.
Well, that’s just wrong. Destiny called a family meeting. Destiny warned off Dream about finding Thessaly and got Dream to consult with Orpheus about Destruction.
I mislike your reasoning.
Two names. Hob Galding. Two more names: Charles and Edwin.
Where you see completely powerless, I see often disinclined.
Hmm. If I recall correctly, the family meeting was called by Destiny because he read in his book that that was what he was to do. In fact, the more I think about it, it seems like Destiny is the only sentient in the universe without free will.
Charles and Edwin? Which two are they? Hob Gadling never cheated Death. Death, persuaded by Dream, gave Hob an extension.
Is free will really all that it’s cracked up to be? It’s just making a choice when you’re uncertain of the outcome.
I’m not certain that an all-powerful, omniscient and prescient being can be said to have free will unless they pretend, as Death once said to Destruction, not to know things – especially when it comes to doing things that are irresponsible or against their essential nature. Dream obliterated rather than continue changing or forsaking his responsibilities.
Consider also: if the gods have free will, can God do Evil? Can He make a rock too heavy for Him to lift? Can God worship another being?
If free will exists, than any limitations of omniscient beings of this stature are by necessity self-imposed. Otherwise it’s all according to a divine plan, some destined path.
I don’t think Destiny deliberately informs a person of the ramifications of their choices before they make their own defining choice, any more than Death just randomly kills someone on a whim or Dream allows a Vortex to exist. An informed decision about the preordained violates human free will as does deliberate interference.
Doc Manhattan said it best in WATCHMEN: “Everything is pre-ordained, even my responses,” and “We’re all puppets, Laurie. I’m just a puppet who can see the strings.” I think Destiny somewhat like that, too. The question remains whether the strings attached to Destiny belong a remote Puppetmaster even greater than the Endless or the strings of the Fates.
Charles and Edwin are the dead ghost boys from the English boarding school who literally ran away from death, later becoming detectives.
I’ll concede that Hob Galding continues to cheat death with Death’s consent.
The DCU is, by nature, an “all possibilities” universe. All paths are open, and indeed, in another universe, you might’ve had something else for breakfast, or conquered the planet before lunch. So all sentients have free will and make choices that determine which universe of the multiverse they’ll end up in. Destiny’s book has all those possibilities in it - and on at least one occasion, he acts because of what was laid out for him in the book. Where every other being in the universe has choice, I’m not sure Destiny has it.
And the Endless aren’t all omnipotent or omniscient. They are very close to those things, within their own domain, but sharply limited outside it. Destiny’s not even very potent inside his domain.
It’s also interesting to note that, apart from Death, humans get along just fine functioning in each of the Endless’s domains without the Endless’s input. People Dream without Dream, people Destroy without Destruction, people choose without Destiny - but Death is present for the beginning and end of every single being’s life.
The God of the DCU is a perfect non-answer to this question. The Presence is utterly unknowable.
Dream kills Vortices because they endanger his domain. Death has, on at least one occasion (Hob Gadling) seemingly randomly decided to let a person exceed their normal span.
Ah, yes. I’ll have to look up the particular book, but - Death ended their “life”, fulfilling her essential part - that their spirits remained behind on the Earth is of little consequence. Ghosts have to come from somewhere.
Good. 
Repeating: can omniscient, prescient and apparently infalliable beings truly be said to have “choices” or “free will?”
According to Death, everyone’s omniscient. We just pretend we aren’t – which makes a bit of sense if you’ll consider the unsettling possibility that because of Destiny, free will does not really exist. Also, the only Endless to be seen as limited outside his realm was Dream – but then, none of the other Endless save Dream ever infused gemstones with their power. Once his ruby was destroyed and his power was restored, Dream was nigh-indestructable again. The Endless are omnipotent but they are bound by rules – but we follow rules willingly and when we defer to them to limit ourselves.
I’m not sure Death’s omnipresence is an essential part of her function. When Morpheus killed Orpheus, Death wasn’t there. And yes, destiny, death, dreaming, destruction, desire, despair and delirium (formerly delight) all occur without the Endless’ active prescence, but I question whether it’s always “just fine.”
Of course, the God of the VERTIGO imprint is a bit less unfathomable, if you’re reading PREACHER or SANDMAN.
Dream didn’t always kill Vortexes (I mislike “Vortices”). It was only a seemingly random act, letting Hob Galding live. Destiny no dounbt has Hob come up a few times. Letting someone continue to live indefinitely isn’t the same as prematurely killing someone.
You need a book? HA. HA. HA. Puny fanboy! Your SANDMAN-fu is flaccid. Mine is STRONG. LIKE. BULL. In this case, two ghosts continue to enjoy an afterlife on Earth, much to Death’s consternation. They’re cheating Death.
Ahhhh, I threw you a bone. Don’t get cocky, kid.
Question is irrelevant as no such beings are in the context of discussion.
I attribute that offhand quote from Death to poetic license, not to be taken literally. Free will indisputably exists in the DCU. Regarding limitations - I don’t mean their physical realm, I mean their realm of influence. For example, Delirium could strike someone with insanity, or cure someone’s insanity, or influence the insane, but she could not bring someone back from the dead. I contest the assertion that they are omnipotent - this is a philsophical impossibility, as there are 7 of them. (To Sidebar : If they all were infinitely powerful, and thus met the definition they would either be unable to affect one another - negating the ‘omnipotent’ label) - Each of them clearly has the edge on the others in certain areas, excepting none of them seems to trouble Death.
We don’t know Death wasn’t there. Death isn’t always visible to outside observers. She may not have wanted to visibly intrude on Dream’s privacy. In fact, is there not a quote right at the moment about Dream sending Orpheus ‘to his sister’?
To my recollection, capital-G made no appearance in Sandman.
Well, Vortices is the real word. 
For Death to choose to prematurely kill someone, she’d need a reason - and she doesn’t seem subject to the same intensity of emotions that gets Morphy in trouble. Sure, she gets a little annoyed from time to time, but not in a killing mood.
Well, I can spell ‘Gadling’ correctly, so perhaps your SANDMAN-fu needs refreshment, revered one. Death did her part by ending the lives of the boys - typically in such cases, she ushers people off to the afterlife, and she may even feel like she has to make a good effort at it, but to account for the existence of ghosts, one assumes she lets the ones that really want to hang around do so.
Pssssssssft. Yeah, right, Church Lady. Well. Isn’t that convenient.
Destruction took her quite literally. In the self-contained world of SANDMAN, which is a VERTIGO imprint that merely shares some overlap with the DCU, free will is not so clear cut. Nor is free will a given in many of Neil Gaimain’s works regarding gods. I maintain that the elder three Endless are omnipotent, with the added caveat that all-powerful must in certain respects be seemingly self-contradictory. Also, there are rules. Destiny got Death to get attired formally for the meeting, remember?
My point precisely. If Death were THERE, Orpheus would be going with his aunt. Besides, in that scene there were no outsiders – just blood relatives.
Maybe not, but His will was made manifest by His angels. You said, the God in the DCU was ‘uttery unknowable’ – gotta be careful with them absolutes, baby.
If Death isn’t as moody as Dream and that keeps her from choosing to kill, you can imagine how much more reserved Destiny is, and why he wouldn’t likely consider it either. He’s a manifestation of a function not given to whim, not a all a powerless entity.
You realize I’ve been mispronouncing Hob Gadling’s name for 15 years now? Okay that’s one for you, seventeen gazillion for me…
SANDMAN is in DCU continuity, and vice versa. There are many overlaps. Neil Gaiman’s other works - completely immaterial. You even mentioned Preacher earlier - again, completely immaterial. Destiny got Death attired formally because of mutually agreed upon rules of behavior, similar to the rule the Endless developed about not falling in love with mortals. Those situations have nothing to do with omnipotence or the lack thereof. Each of them, even the three eldest, have things they cannot do. Limits to their power. Therefore, by definition, not omnipotent. Vastly powerful, yes, but provably and factually not omnipotent. Dream is the best example, since we have the most information about him - he cannot recall the power in his Ruby until it is destroyed; he fears for his safety when visiting Hell; he cannot simply summon the rogue Corinthian and the other rogue dreams back to the Dreaming; he cannot resist the agent of the Furies; he cannot find Destruction without resorting to the means of a common detective; et cetera, et cetera.
I didn’t say outsiders. I just said outside observers - meaning anyone besides Death and the departed. I’ll have to review the scene for specifics, but do we see his spirit leave his body and walk away?
Just because you get orders from the chain of command above you doesn’t mean you know anything about the being that originated those orders. If, in fact, they originated where you think they did.
Nobody’s as moody as Dream. Death, at least, has enough positive emotion to grant her brother’s request to extend Hob’s life. With Destiny there is no evidence at all to suggest he can alter someone’s destiny. And there’s strong evidence that he resents bearing the book - the chains that bind him to it, and his reaction at being freed of the burden at the end of the universe.
Now we just need to work on your math skills… 
Paul Bunyan
Just looking at the Marvel Universe, before he was retconned the Beyonder was the most powerful character to ever appear in a comic. He could do literally anything and he wore shoulder pads. Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet was also quite impressive.
There was also the “Ten Eyed Man” who was listed as the most terrifying villian EVER!
He had eyes on the end of each finger (which would give him 12 eyes).
Then wouldn’t he be the “Twelve Eyed Man?”
Adam