Rationality is not the only tool us humans have to learn about this world we live in. We have our emotions, our feelings to help us learn. They are more accurate than logic. We do use them everyday, but give them little credit. They can be developed through practice.
Dam it. That’s my bestest one. Hmmmmmm oh I know
You can’t graduate until you pass the test.
I’m not sure what you’re using but it isn’t anything like my logic. What the hell are you talking about?
You see, satan is not an indipendant agent. According to the mythology (a.k.a. the bible) he was created by god, to serve him. Thus, he is kinda like the pitbull in the example.
independent
Huh? Was that supposed to answer the question about why God would need a test? If so I don’t get it.
So why would He?
But what of the belief that God made Man? If He did so, then He made my mind a questing and curious one–a doubting one and a skeptical one. He gave me free will, but will punish me for exercising it? That makes no sense to me.
Jesus did not shun Thomas (who doubted-'course, the doubt didn’t last all that long!)
To my mind, it can’t be both ways. Either God made me and knows all my flaws and moral failings and loves me anyway(because I am His creation) OR He made a faulty product and sends me to the reject pile because I didn’t follow His teachings (even though He made me flawed)-which makes him quite human, really, if true.
I dont’ get the bit about I am supposed to turn off the logic in my brain and ignore the workings of the universe and physics and evolution etc–just to appease the biggest egomaniac out there.
It doesn’t parse.
I can choose to believe in God (and I still do–I just have alot of trouble with religion–and I in no way take the Bible literally in any aspect)–I just don’t believe that God’s love is conditional.
Does that mean that I believe that anything goes? Not really–although I do believe that murderers etc NEED God’s love the most of all of us. I think we should try to emulate Jesus’ teachings–to bring us closer to God’s love–not to “earn” it. But I also think that Buddha, Mohammed, the Goddess, even Vishnu also taught love, hard work, charity, generosity etc. Jesus is not the only teacher of God’s love to me–one reason I have had to give up Christianity–that is unacceptable to my church, apparently.
Heaven to me (and I doubt it exists) is just another plain of existence, not a “reward” for brownie points and good behavior. Same with hell–another plain, not Eternal Damnation and Burning.
Fine. The prospect of a God who would send unbelievers to Hell makes me feel the emotion of loathing. Hence, I cannot bring myself to believe that God would do this, if He is just.
[hijack]Incidentally, I think emotion contributes to reason, to a large extent, instead of emotion being separate from reason. A nice book on that topic is Antonio Damasio’s Descartes’ Error.[/hijack]
BTW, very nice post, eleanorrigby.
Thus you are wrong. Satan was one of the angels but rebelled and was cast out of heaven. By some beliefs he wanted to subjugate mankind instead of allowing man free will.
I was kidding around. sorta
Read the **monavis ** post I responded to. I don’t believe the christian mythology but as I understand it, God didn’t create an evil being. Satan had free will like us and chose power over the love of God and was cast out of heaven.
Like us, {according to some} who are created as spiritual beings but have the ability to choose. Unless there was an alternative to the love of God we would have nothing else to choose right? So Satan tempts and we choose. We can choose the love of God and return to his presence or we can allow ourselves to be decieved by the father of all lies. Graduation would then be chooseing love and returning to God. If you don’t graduate you will be held back and have to take the class over.
correct. We also have to make judgement calls as we learn and grow. {if growing is our desire} christianity ignores or at least minimizes many great passages in the bible such as “try the spirits to see if they are of God” many passages that say we will be judged by our works and rewarded according to our deeds, rather than just what we believe. Jesus said repeatedly that it’s what is truly in your heart and how that translates into your actions that counts.
There’s an interesting passage where Jesus says “you can doubt me but don’t blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.”
I see that spirit as our connection to God and each other. It moves us toward compassion and empathy. If we continue to deny that spirit and choose to ignore it’s voice within us we have to deal with the consequences of that choice.
I agree. I think the truth must be reasonable and logical. There may be things that are beyond my understanding right now but when a doctrine makes little sense or seems contradictory to a sense of perfect love mercy and justice, then the whole, “just accept it” routine leaves me cold and unsatisfied.
If you believe that God loves all mankind then it makes sense that the holy spirit has been reaching out and speaking to people since the beginning. Take this perfect spirit and filter it through different people from different ages and cultures and you get a boatload of beliefs that have some similarities and some differences. Since we each have that spirit within us we don’t have to rely on some spiritual leader to tell us whats right. We can go directly to the source.
Meh. I was raised jewish, and I was always told that Satan was an angel of god’s. His duty was, and still is, to play “the devil’s advocate” in the heavenly court. No rebellion involved. All this “rebelled” stuff seems like a convenient after-the-fact explanation that found its way into the christian bible.
However, in the context you speak of, none of that is true. However, most forms of christianity proclaim that god is all loving, and all caring. Not your branch, but nonetheless, it is what many claim. Problem is, this god also created satan, scapegoat for much of the world’s evil. Thing is, while the two concepts exist in the same religion, they don’t work in the least. It is the problem of evil. God knows all, so he must have know what satan would have done, etc., etc., and so on.
Isaiah 14:12-20
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”
Ezekiel 28:12 –19
"`You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.
You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.
Read my post again. I never disputed that christianity has satan as a fallen angel. No cites needed. However, what I am saying, is that theologically, as a creation of god’s, satan is the owner’s pitbull in the previous example.
And not even just the Bible, but later, non-biblical works like Milton’s Paradise Lost.
Your description of Satan, as a sort of prosecuting attorney, is one I’ve heard before too, particularly in conjuction with Satan’s appearance in the book of Job. IIRC some claim that “Satan” isn’t really a proper name but a title, meaning “adversary.”
The quotes provided by cosmodan have been interpreted by some Christians as referring to Satan, but plenty of Biblical scholars would say they’re supposed to refer to some historical human ruler(s). In fact, in the verse right before the passage from Ezekiel, it’s identified as “a lament concerning the king of Tyre.”
OK, I understand that.
This sort of makes sense but only sort of. Whether God created Satan as evil or merely with the potential for evil and the opportunity to practice it, God is responsible for the universe and everything in it. I don’t believe in the mythology either, but that’s the mythology.
And I think it leads to the next point.
Interesting point. There is a school of thought that holds that the Babylonian captivity gave the Jahvists a way out of the dilemma of holding God responsible for random bad things. Zoroastrianism had two dieties, one of good and one of bad. The world we live in is their battleground and they are pretty equally matched. Bad things happen when the bad diety gains the upper hand and vice versa when the good diety does. So the Yahvists added Satan to the mix when they were formulating the mythology that became the Bible, or more exactly the Torah. I don’t think there are any authenticated references to Satan in pre-Exilic literature. Any such references are considered to be late interpolations.
Later mythology absolved God of creating an evil being. In this myth, Satan refused to bow down to mankind at the creation of Adam. He and numerous folowers were then ejected from heaven, not for evil but for disobedience which God doesn’t seem to tolerate well. After that, Satan became bitter and twisted and started tempting people.
I don’t see how that lets God off the hook. As in all these things either God is omniscient and should have foreseen Satan’s reaction or he is not and was caught off base. And either God is omnipotent and could stop Satan at any time and chooses not to or he is not and Satan is free to do as he pleases.
The idea that God needs to test individuals to see if they will fall for temptations is ridiculous on its face for an omniscient God. The idea of an independent force of evil beyond God’s power to restrain or correct is ridiculous on its face for an omnipotent God. And the idea of God allowing a temptor to cause some of God’s children to endure eternal punishment is ridiculout on its face for a loving Father.
This is addressed to the king of Babylon. The word for “morning star” is translated as lucifer (light bringer) in the Latin Vulgate and refers to the planet Venus. The entire verse is jus a poetic allegory comparing the King of tyre to the planet Venus in that it ascends briefly but then is wiped out by the sun (God). The
. verse has nothingwhatever to do with Satan.
This verse is addressed to the King of Tyre but also alludes to mankind as a whole. Human beings were figuratively the “gyardian cherubs” of Eden until pride drove them out. Incidentally, some translations say “I placed you WITH an annointed guardian cherub,” not “I anointed you AS…” I guess the Hebrew is kind of funky in that verse.
In any case, it ain’t about Satan. There is no Jewish or OT tradition of Satan as a fallen angel or as an enemy to God. Judaism does not have a “devil.”
I mean king of BABYLON. The king of Tyre is in the Ezekiel passage.
I was trying to find the source this morning but couldn’t
I remember a concept in which Satan wanted to take Jesus place but promised to make all mankind bow down to God. {this was in the precreation spirit plane while the universe was in the planning stages 
}
This was in violation of free will. Free will is an important quality of love which is God’s nature. You can’t force someone to love you. It must be freely given. In order for that love to be freely given there has to be an alternative. So Satan chose power over love and was cast out.
I don’t see how it makes God responsible. We are free to choose and by chooseing we can learn and grow, if we choose love and truth rather than fear and illusion. If free will is a crucial component of God’s love then by interfering with free will God would be contrary to his very nature. With my own kids I have to weigh how much I interfere and when. I want them to be responsible adults. How can they be if I never allow them to face the consequences of their own choices.
I don’t think God needs to test us. He knows what we are. His perfect children.
Rather the test is a result of our own choices and how we awaken to a full knowledge of ourselves.
There is no need to restrain evil for it only has whatever power we give it by our own choice.
The whole punished for not believing a certain doctrine is ludicrious to me. In some beliefs it is only those who come to a full knowledge of God and still choose otherwise that are cast out. {their choice}
Others believe that evetually, through the educational process of reincarnation, we will all be reunited with our loving father. I hope so.
Being in the second grade is starting to suck. 
I have read one hell of a lot of religious texts, prior to becoming an atheist. As I recall, Satan asked jesus to bow down to him, when he was in the desert. Perhaps you are mentally combing this with other memories of other stories, and coming up with a polyglot version of the bible?