Who would win?

Great Debates
21

Muhammed Ali vs. Bruce Lee.

This would be a good fight. If we take a Lee near the end of his movie career (where he believed he was really losing his edge) then Ali. However, if we take an early Lee (let’s say shortly after he opens his second dojo) then it becomes much more interesting almost dead even.

Lee’s combat natured philosophy is very different than most typical martial arts (and far superior in my view, which is one of the reasons Tao of Jeet Kun Do is required reading at my dojo for 5th Kyu). Lee trained extensively to be able to take the shots and dish them out, so I don’t think it would be quite so simple for Ali to just knock him out. On the other hand, heavyweight boxers like Ali hit really freakin’ hard (there is an amateur boxer in my dojo right now who weighs 220 lbs and I can profess to his striking ability!).

So I think ultimately the answer to this question comes down to the set of rules. The closer the rules come to boxing the more likely Ali is to win. The closer the rules resemble a street fight the more likely Lee is to win (a lot of techniques that aren’t allowed in the boxing ring would aid Lee tremendously).

In all fairness, so do martial artists. However, boxer’s also aim their punches slightly down so as to drive their opponent down (keeping in mind that the rules of boxing focus on scoring a knockdown and not a lethal blow).

This is true, but only by design. Most martial arts bouts go to scoring a small handful of points (3-5). You cannot draw the conclusion that because the bout is short that martial artists lack endurance.

This would be true of most martial artists but not of Lee. Lee was not a tournament competitor.

Sad but true of most martial arts training (see below), but not of all martial arts training and certainly not true of Lee’s personal training.

This is false. Sosai Masutatsu Oyama (killed bulls with his bare hands, fought 100 people in a single day knocking many out in seconds) & Royce Gracie are two people that would beat Ali fairly easily, but keep in mind these guys trained like warriors, not like most martial artists today (see below).

Absolutely true.

Note: This is the see below part. The problem with comparing anything to the martial arts is that there is a HUGE variety of martial arts, martial arts training and martial artists. The very large proportion frankly stink. The training is woefully inadequete for self defense, combat or for going up against the likes of Ali. Most martial arts training is not very rigourous at all and is basically good for little more than keeping you in modest shape. Sadly, since this is the large majority this is the view people have of the martial arts.

Boxing training on the other hand does not vary all that much. Almost without exception, boxing training is extremely rigourous.

However, there is some martial arts training that is very rigourous (head down to Brazil and watch the Gracies in training or a seminar where they are teaching … they exemplify the Spirit of Osu!). This puts these martial artist in the same boat as the boxer except that have more techniques at their disposal and less rules (again we come to a question about what rules we use for the match). This gives those martial artist who (in essence) train like boxer then edge of boxers.

Ali vs. Lee. Good fight. I’ll give it to Ali 5.5/10.

“Glitch … BFG.” - Bob the Guardian

22

I forgot to add. That martial artist strike straight (instead of slightly downwards) for penetration which is where a difference lies.

Also, boxers punch specifically to shake the head around (they want to make their opponent “dizzy”, at a bare minimum). Again, a martial artist will strike for penetration.

A penetrating strike will cause more internal damage (on a strike per strike basis), and a boxer could certainly strike in a similar manner if it weren’t for the gloves.

23

Speaking of penetrating strikes, I’d like to back Inigo Montoya in a bout against Zorro. Any takers?

Once in a while you can get shown the light
in the strangest of places
if you look at it right…

24

Inigo vs. Zorro = Zorro-ka-bob.

Inigo Montoya is described (in the book) as being a wizard, which according to the book is somebody far superior to that of a master. Zorro is often described as a master fencer.
Advantage Inigo.

Inigo Montoya has been practicing fencing for 20 years. According to the things he says during the duel he has studied under great instructors and learnt an incredible amount concerning fencing. Zorro was a Spanish noble who undoubtedly learned to fence as part of his upbringing. As such, he has at best been taught by a single master. Advantage Inigo.

Inigo has been in the mercenary racket for quite some time. This means he has put his sword skills to use for quite some time (according to the book Inigo fought Count Reuben at 11 years old, trained for the next several years, lets say 7, went to see his old friend to be evaluated and then went out into the world. Therefore Inigo has been a mercenary for about 13 years). Zorro skills were taught undoubtedly as his upbringing and weren’t used in real life until his little one man revolution. Zorro’s skills therefore have only been tested in real battle for a couple of years. Advantage Inigo.

In the movie, Inigo ponders the his capability to defeat 20 men. This suggests that he thinks, although briefly, that he may be able to fight them. This means his has skills and tactics in his mind that could be effective against 20 men, although he decides to dismiss them. Also, we see Inigo easily dispatch four armored soldiers. He also outfight Count Reuben after being stabbed three times. Zorro, on the other hand, does routinely duel multiple opponents but he never manages to kill any of them. This is because Zorro fights defensively. His plans normally consist of sneaking in, accomplishing his plans, and then fighting his way out. Fighting defensively while making way to an exit is much easier than actually fighting and beating multiple opponents. Although Zorro may very well be able to beat them instead of fighting them off, we don’t know that for certain. Advantage Inigo.

Inigo everytime.

25

How about:

Arnold’s Commando from the movie “Commando”
vs. Arnold’s Commando from the movie “Predator” vs.
Arnold’s cop character from the movie “Red Heat” (I think it was Red somethingm he played a Russian cop) vs.
Arnold’s character from “Total Recall” vs.
Arnold’s federal marshal character from “Eraser” vs.
Arnold’s character from “Conan the Barbarian” vs.
Arnold’s character from “Kindergarden Cop” :slight_smile:

Each character is armed with the handgun (pistol or revolver only) of their choice. Furthermore we will assume that the guns all have the same bullet capacity. Except Conan who gets his usual sword. To make things fair for Conan he only join the battle when there are two other’s remaining.

So, which Arnold is the bad of the bad!

“Glitch … BFG.” - Bob the Guardian

26

Right on Glitch… very glad you used the book to make your decision (never bet blindly). But even though I said I’d back Inigo as well, I don’t think the odds would be so slanted.

Inigo was bested by Wesley. Wesley could not have started training much earlier than seventeen / eighteen and would have met Inigo within ten to fifteen years. (I am at work and don’t have the reference handy.) Therefore the difference in training, etc. are not as great as one might initially think. Given diminishing marginal returns from training, and they both achieve their potentials. (In this line of thinking, it would also be interesting to put Inigo up against Connor MacLeod. But you’d have to do something about MacLeod’s immortality.)

Should you consider motivation a factor in the Wesley / Inigo bout (true blove v/s paternal vengence) than one would have to include Zorro’s sense of justice. Were the two to meet pre-Princess Bride, Zorro would be fighting a mercenary. Whose motivation would give him the edge then? If they met after the PB, Zorro’s motivation would live on whilst Inigo would have already vanquished the six fingered man.

So, though I think Inigo has the odds in his favor, if you really think they are that high, I might be tempted into taking a piece of that action. I know have that deed to my house around here somewhere…

Once in a while you can get shown the light
in the strangest of places
if you look at it right…

27

Starsky and Hutch vs. Ponch and John (CHiPs)

No holds barred.

Who would win?

28

Snuggles Teddy Bear vs. Pillsbury dough boy

This would be pretty unfair; back in '94 Snuggles had to chew off his own leg to escape from a lint trap.

Before 1994, I’d give it to Snuggles. Bear claws against bleached gluten.

29

Being beaten by the Dread Pirate Roberts/Wesley who had considerable real life training is very different than having to fight a Spanish noble who until recently lived the good life (I say until recently because none of the Zorro tales suggest that he fought the evil Spanish for an extended period of time).

Also, Wesley like Inigo had the advantage of learning “fencing, fighting, anything anybody would teach me” from multiple people. This makes him, like Inigo, well-rounded. Zorro probably learnt as a child from a single swordmaster. He probably learnt fencing more for recreation than with the notion that he might someday have to use it. Inigo learnt to fight so he could kill. Wesley learnt to fight because he was a pirate.

MacLeod handily, even without immortality (unless he was fighting drunk). Of course, if we use the actual displayed ability each of the actors as their character’s ability … well, it goes to Inigo/Mandy Patinkan over MacLeod/Chris Lambert (the sword fighting in Highlander is pretty bad, and yes, I do like the movie Highlander).

There are a number of reasons why, but perhaps most importantly is that the immortals have a real tough game to play. They must hit the neck! Therefore, to be accomplished at this they must be (dispite appearance in the movie) absolute masters of the sword and they have the time to become so.

I note, good sir, that you didn’t really list any reasons (other than motivation which is minor since arguably all three could have high motivation to win, so that balances out, except that “To Blave” is apparently stronger motivation that justice. Note, too, that both Inigo and Zorro are motivated by justice, so they definitely balance out) why Zorro wouldn’t be skewered.

Zorro lacks the real life experience, the diverse training, the tactics (defensive fighter, interested in escape not victory) and basically the raw skill (Inigo is a wizard) to defeat Inigo.

I want some concrete evidence that suggests that Zorro is a good enough fighter to last against the likes of Inigo. Bring it on! :wink:

The only way Zorro could win would be to sucker punch Inigo while Inigo asks him if he has six fingers on his right hand.

How about Inigo vs. All three of the three musketeers (minus their muskets)?

30

I would have to say the Athos Porthos and Aramis would be able to take down pretty much any single fighter. After all Dumas’s charaters rarely fight fair. Speaking of which, how about Wesley vs. The Count of Monte Cristo?

Redwing – an ugly little town on the Mississippi

31

Glitch: what do you think of Inigo Montoya vs. The Gray Mouser?

Armed, dangerous…
and off my medication.

32

Glitch: just because nobody else took you up on this one, the Arnie characters would finish in this order (winner first):

Conan the Barbarian
Predator/Commando (too close to call)
Total Recall
Eraser
Red Heat
Kindergarden Cop

And, last but not least, Twins

Reasoning: motivation. In Conan, he had a God-given right to revenge his family’s murder. And had a girlfriend that could come back from the grave. A loyal minion, ya da, ya da. He was also trained in martial arts and sword fighting by the best. And was an undefeated winner in the ‘to the death’ gladiator biz.

In Predator and Commando he was just a bad ass dude trying to make a point. Or get rich. And live to spend the money. Conan had a clause, these two had a bank account.

Total Recall, it gets a little fuzzier - he knows that something is wrong but has a lot of trouble figuring it out - total muddle until the last half hour or so. Then, he throws a snit and causes general mayhem. Pish!

Eraser, well, I’ll admit that off the top of my head I don’t remember a lot about the movie, so I ranked it low.

Red Heat, KCop and Twins were comedies, 'nuf said. How about Robin Williams vs Billy Crystal? It might be an interesting spectacle, but …

Disclaimer: I’ve seen Conan probably over a hundred times now and have it pretty much memorized. It’s been on my (ever-changing) list of best movies ever made since the first time I’ve seen it.

Disclaimer 2: The second Conan doesn’t even make the list because I’d prefer that they had never even released the stupid thing.

33

I’m sorry, but having been a bruce lee fan for many years and read books and seen doc’s on the history of MR. LEE, I have to say Ali would be choking on his own blood in seconds.
why do i say this? Counters! That first punch ali threw, lee would grab his wrist and break his arm. What about legs? Lee would take out a knee. Granted lee wouldn’t want to be hit by ali, but you can’t convince me that ali can’t hit harder than chuck norris (in his prime) can kick! I read Jackie Chan’s book, where he recalls seeing Bruce Lee handle a few things. It seems a lot of extra’s thought lee was just a actor with minimal skills and would challenge him. It would be over very quickly with Lee sometimes not even being hit. when asked if he could take Lee, Chan says he’s glad he never had to fight him.

Not only that, watch the ultimate fighting championships, most of the time the boxers are taken out very, very quickly by trained martial artist and grapplers. I give Ali his due, but Lee had a lot less weak spots.

We live in an age that reads to much to be wise, and thinks too much to be beautiful–Oscar Wilde

34

Sorry - I got called away before I could finish the proof reading.

  1. Change Conan’s motivation to ‘God-given right to avenge the murder of his family’. Tks.

  2. Conan had a ‘cause’, not a ‘clause’. Got past the spell checker, though …

35

Doh! Forgot all the Terminators - maybe I should start a new thread?

36

I’ll be honest, I don’t know all that much about the Gray Mouser, his big buddy Fafhrd orLankhmar. I read the three graphic novels (comic books) by Epic, and of course, I know he is mentioned in AD&D 1st ed. Legends & Lore ™.

IIRC (according to Legends & Lore), Gray Mouser is a high level thief with high dexterity. He has an enchanted dirk and dagger.

If a high level thief a match for a high level fighter? Not likely in a straight up match. However, Gray Mouser wouldn’t be above using a little trickery (Hey, look a guy with six fingers!).

I don’t think it would be enough, but then again I would know more about the Mouser if I read some of Leiber’s books which may put Mouser in a completely different light.

I’ll conditionally give it to Inigo based on what I remember from Legends & Lore.

37

Well, you guys, don’t put Inigo down below Wesley so soon. Remember, in the movie Wesley was just plain confident and better than Inigo. They changed it from the book. In the book, Wesley was better than Inigo only in the open. Otherwise, Inigo could use his far broader knowledge and expertise (like hiding behind a tree) to get the better of Wesley. Wesley learned on a ship and all that was important for a ship. Inigo was just a straight up master, a wizard.

38

I saw the movie before I read the book, and I loved the duel in the movie, but after I read the book I really wish they had of used the book duel. I loved the way they made it seem much more equal between the two. Inigo was better amongst the trees, Wesley was better in the open (as Surgoshan reminds us). In the movie, Wesley left hand is better than Inigo’s left, but Inigo’s right hand is better than Wesley’s left hand, BUT Wesley right hand is better than Inigo’s right hand. Still, the duel strikes me as one of my favorite movie moments (“I am going to duel him left-handed” “You know what a hurry we’re in” “It’s the only way I can be satisfied. If I use my right, over to quickly.” “Ohh, have it your way.” Inigo smiles. I love that smile, he seems so full of joy at getting to duel).

The end of the book really makes it clear (in a very muddy, unclear way :)) that Inigo is the better fighter than Wesley. It talks about how someday somebody would come along and defeat Inigo (or would be better or something). That wouldn’t be such a big deal seeing as how he was already defeated by Wesley, unless Inigo really was better overall and only the pure circumstances (true love) of the duel allowed Wesley to overcome Inigo.

39

Good afternoon all,

Remember good sirs, I initially offered to back Inigo in a bout against Zorro. I too share your confidence in his victory. However, what I do not share is your degree of confidence. It seems to me that the preceding posts take this for granted, and predict a quick and relatively easy victory for Inigo. Translate this (IMHO unwarranted) high degree of confidence into betting odds, and you present me with a rather attractive betting opportunity.

I brought up Wesley mainly to show that a) Inigo is not invulnerable, and b) to show that Zorro’s vulnerabilities as brought up by Glitch may not make him as weak as he contends.

First off, it appears to me that Zorro’s skills are being given short shrift. [Please note that I am not a Zorro fanatic, and may have bits and pieces of his legend mixed up. I should also note that most of my knowledge of Zorro comes from the old TV show and comic books. I have not seen the most recent Zorro movie. Please don’t poke my eyes out if this offends.] He has been fencing since a small lad, and has faced a wide diversity of opponents ranging from Spanish nobles to vile scalawags. As a southwestern Robin Hood, he did a lot more than fight to escape, he fought to right wrongs and defend the defenseless. I would put forth the idea that his intercontinental upbringing, diversity of foes and the intensity of his experiences combine to make him as well rounded a fencer, if not more so, as Wesley is/was.

Secondly, the time Zorro had to practice to bring himself up to a skill level worthy of Inigo’s effort. First off, I would stand by my [pun]point[/pun] of diminishing marginal returns. One’s skill at any occupation do not continue to increase linearly with time. Wesley was able in a relatively short amount of time, to bring his ability up to that of Inigo’s, I say that given a lifetime of sport, several years of trusting his (Zorro’s) and other’s lives to his steel would surly bring his ability up quite close to Inigo’s standard. In addition, it should be noted that little is known of Zorro’s life pre-Zorro. We know that his outward appearance of a pansy is much like Clark Kent’s - it gives him some freedom to move. Zorro’s steel had been sharpened long before his move to Los Angeles.

Lastly, on motivation. Though motivation in itself is not enough to ensure victory, it certainly gives one an edge. Sure, ‘to blave’ trumps most other motivations, but compare Inigo’s to Zorro’s. Zorro is not the six-fingered man, so he must be fighting him because we are paying him, in which case he is a motivation-less mercenary. [One could say that his motivation to survive is so that he could continue his quest to find the six-fingered man. However, that is basically the survival instinct which would be shared by Zorro as well. Also, if this battle takes place Post-Princess Bride, he has nothing to continue for except his weekly goon-squad paycheck.) Zorro, on the other hand, faces a mercenary, a sword-for-hire that willingly partakes in events that would lead two otherwise peaceful civilizations to war. Zorro has the high ground.

The [overused pun]point[/overused pun] of this again is not to say that Zorro has the upper hand. But he surely is not going to be dispatched without quite an effort from Inigo. Given the above and odds to match the proceeding comments, and I’d be willing to back Zorro…

Once in a while you can get shown the light
in the strangest of places
if you look at it right…

40

In the back room of a rather large house, a master chef checks one last time on his masterpiece, opens a bottle of sherry, and falls into a fitful sleep in the corner of the kitchen. In one corner of the house, an aged yet spry grandmother (though she is by now somewhat insane, as will be noticed by the content of the dish. Work with me on this one :slight_smile: busies herself with the cleaning. In the parlor, a sizeable bulldog slumbers by the fireplace. In this scene of quietude are many (otherwise benign) implements of personal destruction (i.e. fireplace poker, hot iron, kitchen knives, various broom and mop handles, etc.)

The scent billowing forth from the oven creeps out the front door, down the walk and into the nostrils of two very incompatible characters. Each becomes obsessed with breaking into the house to steal the morsel for themselves and prevent anyone else from eating it, each would even kill to be the only one to dine on such a delicacy.

The scene:
[ul][li]one temperamental chef[/li][li]one feisty grandmother[/li][li]one overbearing pooch[/li][li]several dangerous objects[/li][li]one temperamental chef[/ul][/li]
The dish:
[ul][li]one garlic and herb roasted Jerry (mouse) sitting in a butter sauce with…[/li][li]one sun-dried tomato and artichoke heart stuffed Speedy Gonzales.[/ul][/li]
The characters:
[ul][li]Tom[/li][li]Sylvester[/ul][/li]
…only one will dine on what they have been waiting all their life for. The other will have exhausted his last life trying…… who will win?