Dear Glitch:
Sorry you’re not that familiar with the Grey Mouser. However, Legends & Lore really botched its presentation of both the Mouser and Fafhrd, IMO.
In his introduction to one of his books – I believe it’s The Swords of Lanhkmar – Fritz Leiber, who was an amateur fencer, states that the Mouser was intended to be a supreme swordsman and dirkman – an equal, if not superior, to Cyrano de Bergerac, Scar Gordon and John Carter of Mars among others.
Certainly, in the novels, the Mouser is far more than a high-level thief – he is a master of many weapons. Also, the Mouser would not have any scruples in a fight.
If you like fantasy fiction, I recommend Swords Against Death, Swords in the Mist and Swords Against Wizardry.
Funny you should mention Cyrano. I happened to see that movie on my movie shelf this evening and was about to post that if there is anybody who could definitely take Inigo it would be him.
Based on this new information concerning Gray Mouser, I would have to put my money on Gray Mouser over Inigo.
Of course, poor Inigo based on pure description should be at least these other two equals. However, he is constrained by the script that say he cannot defeat all the men at the gate which puts Cyrano (killer of 100 men) and Mouser (equal to Cyrano) his betters.
In a fairer world (curse you scriptwriter) Inigo would have whooped on the guys at the gate, Fezzik would beat the door down, and Wesley (sadly no longer needed by Inigo) would have remained dead. Is it possible then that Inigo would normally be able to defeat the men, but cannot think of a way simply because the power of true love clouds his mind and hence requires him to save Wesley. That’s my story and I am sticking with it.
Are we allowed to inject real people into this consideration?
I am thinking of Shinmen Musashi no Kami Fujiwara no Genshi, considered by many to be the greatest swordsman of all time. He fought 35 formal duels to the death against known masters of the art of Kendo, and numerous less formal contests against men armed with swords capable of passing through an armored human body with proper use. In most of these contests he was armed with wooden practice swords. Among his opponents, the only one who survived, to run away was the one he attacked with a bow. (Note: not with a bow and arrows, just a bow.)
This account is fairly well established to be accurate, and historic. Miamoto Musashi is also called Kensi, and is considered a master of several other zen practices, some unrelated to combat. He wrote a book, called ** A Book of Five Rings ** which endeavors to point out the path to a complete understanding of conflict, and the means of victory while in contention with another.
Kick Inigo’s ass, you betcha. Even Conan would have to consider if he really wanted to cross that bridge today.
In history, there are occasional records of the unconquered fighters among cohorts of professional warriors. A practitioner of the art of cestus (as brutal a sport as ever existed) was recorded to have won 800 fights, almost all to the death, while fighting in the arena in Roman times. Such a fighter is outside of consideration in comparison to those who fight because they are trained to, or get paid to, or even because they like it.
Even though I’m a big WB fan, I’d have to give the edge to Tom. Tom’s meaner, trickier, and most importantly more resilient. Sylvester get’s hit in the head with a frying pan – he staggers out of the kitchen with birdies flying around his head and off we go to the next scene. Tom gets hit – he looks at the camera, blinks a couple times, then sticks out his lower lip in anger and goes right back at it. Plus, there is the motivation. Tom’s been after Jerry for years; to Sylvester, Jerry’s just another mouse. Tom gets the mouse and it wouldn’t even be close.
I think it is difficult to compare a real person to a person from fantasy.
Frankly, my money would be on Cyrano over Musashi. The guy fought 100 people, and if it were real it would mark him easily as the greatest swordsman ever! But it isn’t real. So, how do we compare the real capabilities of a person who fought real battles against a person who fought a fantasy battle?
If we take the fantasy battle as being real than most fantasy warriors will be better than real warriors, because in fantasy they manage to do things that would be effectively impossible. The battle in the underground temple from “Conan the Destroyer” is a classic example. Outnumbered so badly the small group would have been cut to ribbons very very quickly in real life.
This one is so hard to pick. Both Tom and Sly and hopelessly incompetent at catching their prey. I take it from the setup that it seems both mice are bound so they cannot escape (if this isn’t the case then Sly is at a distinct disadvantage since Gonzales has super-speed making him much harder to catch).
So, this comes down to the each cat’s ability to handle the granny, dog and chef.
I don’t know. Too close to call. I think they both are doomed to fail endlessly, but wait … I reconsider. It seems to me that Tom did every now and then catch Jerry and eat him but Jerry would escape with a fire in the mouth, or a car jack. I think this sets a precedent that Jerry has a slight edge overall.
Between Sylvester, and Tom, neither would win. The fight would be endless. As it was pointed out earlier, they are both capable of surviving the harshest punishment e.g. frying pans to the head, long falls, electrocution. The list goes on and on. If the two ever scrapped, it would more than likely end in a draw.
The greatest (fictional) swordsman was, of course, d’Artagnan, the “fourth” musketeer. Fought countless duels in his lifetime, and, unlike his three friends, stayed a musketeer his whole life, which means a lifetime of practice.
La franchise ne consiste pas à dire tout ce que l’on pense, mais à penser tout ce que l’on dit.
H. de Livry
I recall a publicity picture from the 60’s with Ali and Wilt, posing at boxing. I’d bet on Wilt, as his reach was much greater than Ali’s, Wilt was terribly strong and Wilt was used to absorbing blues inflicted on him in the pivot of NBA games.
Ali would defeat Chamberlain. This isn’t to discount the reach and power of Wilt but I feel Ali is strong enough and fast enough to defeat Wilt.
I tried to find some boxing stats on Chamberlain to try to do a comparison but I couldn’t find any.
Ali however, has 61 matches. 56 wins (37 by KO) and 5 losses (2 losses were after he should have retired, so in a sense he only had three losses during his prime career). Ali is in the International Boxing Hall of Fame (Wilt is not).
Something important about the swordmaster discussions that seems to have been missed is style. Comparing Conan or Conner to Inigo is comparing apples to oranges. Conan fought broadsword, Conner fought broadsword/katana, Inigo, Zorro and friends fought rapier and small-sword. Totally different worlds. Japanese sword styles being what they are, in a duel to the death with each having their preferred weapon I would favor Kensi over all (though Conner has a shot here…the movie’s fighting is so terrible that its hard to give him fair odds).
Given rapiers, I would say Inigo/Cyrano/Zorro/Wesley are all to close to call, but if I had to bet on one I’d probably bet on Wesley. I know this was not the original question but I should point out that Wesley is very special. He became a fencing master in five years. (Farm boys do not take fencing lessons). The average fencing champion today is thirty years old and has been fencing since he was a child. It is said that it takes two lifetimes to master fencing, since by the time you know all that is to be known about the sport you are too old to practice it. Wesley is an exception to this - he is a genius…combine Einstein and Mozart and Hemmingway and you still do not have a Wesley.
That, plus the fact that Wesley was able to turn the Enterprise’s tractor beam into a repulsor beam in a matter of seconds – a feat which the chief engineer claimed would take weeks of design work to accomplish.
Are you demented? Is this supposed to be a serious question?
Indiana Jones trivially.
Han Solo only fights once barehanded against an Imperial scout.
Indiana Jones beats up a big guy in Raiders, a bigger guy in Temple of Doom (although granted he mainly wins by luck), and a pretty tough German colonel/general in Last Crusade. He knocks out several incidental Nazis as well with a single blow (a German private in Raiders, a German lieutenant in Raiders, a German colonel in Last Crusade). He fights no-name religious fanatics barehanded in Temple of Doom. Finally, he fights barehanded against no-name several Nazis on the back of the tank in Last Crusade.
Granted that Solo defeating the scout is pretty impressive seeing how the scout was wearing ARMOR (even if only scout armor) it just doesn’t compare to Jones’ skill.
Is this supposed to be a serious question?