Who's rule is this and whose responsible?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
61

Perhaps, but 4,000 people (which is approximately the number of active members on the SDMB) is a large enough sample to notice trends. One trend that I have noticed is the degradation of command of the English language, in a lot of cases involving people who should know better.

I agree that that is indicative of a much larger problem than the one that I am referring to, but nonetheless we are creating the perception that we have a populace of imbeciles. Some of these errors are so basic that they were taught to me in second grade. Is it unreasonable to expect that a self-selecting, supposedly intelligent and educated sampling of people can write at a second grade level? Your problem is one that needs to be solved so that those kids can survive. The grammar problem is one that needs to be solved so that our country as a whole can survive, lest we all end up sounding like imbeciles.

I worry about that every day. If my son does not learn how to read or speak properly it is my fault. That doesn’t mean that I should give people a pass when a simple correction can make them more literate and more understanding in the nuances of the language they should be masters of.

62

It definately is.

63

Bolding mine.

And we’ll continue with you. Would it not be more correct (at least for a self professed grammar Nazi) to say instead “in the nuances of the language of which they should be master.”? Which Egregious Sin is that? Because if it is a mistake, that would make you as stupid as me and all the other folks you have criticized. No, I’ll just take it as a confirmation of my statement that posts here are made quickly, and mistakes are made. Never mind, we will leave that to the ubiquitous copy writers you would have out of work. There are larger issues here…

No, Airman Doors, USAF, the reason that you are being an ass is because… well… because you are an ass. Plain and simple. (Or, plainly and simply if you eschew colloquialisms.)*

As far as I am concerned, people on this board (irrespective of the forum) deserve at least common courtesy until they have shown a reason that it should be reserved. Apparently bad grammar is your reason for taking off the gloves. Bad manners is mine.

You judge others on this message board on the basis of their literacy, and denounce them as stupid (hardly “simple corrections” as you post above). If you were a mechanic or a car salesman, you would denounce those who drove substandard automobiles, because “we are what we drive”. If you were a contractor or a house painter, you would excoriate those who presented a less than picture perfect front yard, because “that is the face that we show to our neighbors”. If you were a tailor, you would flay those who wore out of fashion clothing, because “clothes make the man”. Instead, you are a Communications student, and literacy is your personal pogrom. Gee, who saw that one coming? “When your only tool is a hammer…”

This obviously didn’t sink in the first time I said it, so I’ll type slowly for the hard of thinking: I think that most here share your interest in (and even love of) literacy. No one should have an objection to being corrected, if correction is warranted. But if your first response is to react with vehemence when courtesy is a tool at your disposal, I expect that you will understand why I react in the same way.

Just a guess here: I think that you saw the title to this thread, and came in expecting to come down with both jackboots on the neck of the poster. I can only imagine your tight lipped anger when you came to realize that the OP and all the following posts were in jest (and some of them quite humorous). But anger will out, and so you came in with an axe to grind, making reference to some previous thread or threads about illiteracy (but without a link). I have no idea if any of those with whom you had argued in the past were represented here, but no matter; all those who preceded you ended up as collateral damage. I can think of nothing else that could explain how a previously light hearted thread was turned into slugfest by you. My suggestion would be to reopen that thread and let folks here have their fun, but I have no objection to continuing this discussion if you would prefer. You won’t find me contradicting you as to the decline of literacy in this country, but we could take up the shocking decline of manners.

[Plynck bows from the waist, sweeping his plumed hat low, then rises to wipe off the bloody tip of his sword. He twirls his mustache, swirls his cape, and jumps on his waiting horse and rides off as Airman Doors, USAF looks down at blood welling from the “P” slashed across his chest.]

Then he completely spoils his exit by asking incredulously “Steelers march to the Superbowl? In your fucking DREAMS, fella. The Pats will pound them into the ground like a tentstake! And I fucking HATE football!”

*Moderators: I know that the tone of this post borders on unacceptable for MPSIMS. Nevertheless, it began in the Pit, and I am responding to the tone and to the comments that originated there. If folks object to the tone of this post, and if you feel that I am violating the tone of this forum, please relocate this thread back to the Pit.

64

In that vein:

Perhaps the use of “pre” illustrates how English is changing, but I hate it.

It was made popular — IMO — with the utterances of stuffed shirts (read politicians and ad writers — but the ad writers merely write for stuffed shirts) who used it for emphasis and who didn’t care that it made them sound stupid, for they were addressing only the great unwashed and easily swayed. It is as bad as the horrendously bombastic “at this point in time” for “now,” and it’s glued to anything and everything, including “recorded,” “conditions” and now, tests.

This use of “pre” has been around long enough — WTF is a preregistration? You’re registering! — that in this point in time it is being used by people who don’t remember a prepoint in time when it wasn’t used. So they think it’s required. How long before some stuffed-shirt blowhard who says “The Second World War ended with an unpreconditional surrender,” is applauded for using proper English?

“This program was prerecorded before a live audience.” Christ on a pogo stick, weeping. Not only was it prerecorded, it wasn’t taped in a morgue! Who knew? Fuckin’ pretentious blowhards. That’s bad enough, but emphasis inflation has hit “pre.” It is used so much the redundancy is lost. To help regain it, a hyphen must be hammered on. (And at this point in time, pretaped is gaining ascendency.)

“Both” is another. “Both Jack and Jane went up the hill” has a blinking, neon arrow pointing at redundancy. Other constructions, such as “Both men and women took the test,” pile error upon error: If it is not simply redundant (there is no way to know), it says there were only two men. But we should be thankful no one had to write a pretest.

“Eats, Shoots and Leaves” needs a comma after it because as it stands, the “as well” means you read that book and at least one other. A comma would tell the reader that the person to whom you address the post no doubt read it, too. (Note that the comma before “too” in the previous sentence.)

The “of” is redundant. Its incorrect insertion occurs more and more often, but like “loose” for “lose,” the frequency of its appearance does not make it correct.

As for “anymore,” as in, “I will do this anymore,” what can be said, other than we shouldn’t loose all hope? Maybe the firing squad can presell the guilty writer’s organs at a predead point in time.

65

To me, message boards are “semi-conversational,” in that many people post so fast it’s more like spoken discourse. When I read the SDMB I can overlook the there/their/thery’re error, even the who’s/whose error. It raises my attention if I see it in a newspaper or magazine, but I don’t get very upset.

We should be thankful we don’t have leetspeak on the SDMB.

66

You guys are just a bunch of pre-madonnas.

:eek:

67

No I Did Not. I don’t know what you mean. Are you accusing me of plagiarizing?

68

Unless they are reporters and you are their editor, no, I would imagine not. :wink:

69

Airman Doors
Although your views are occassionally, slightly conservative and mine are somewhat liberal :smiley: , we usually end up agreeing on a great many issues. This is definitely one of those.

You mentioned that the USA is creating the impression that it is a “populace of imbeciles”. I’m afraid the problem is much more serious than just learning the rules of grammar and being able to express oneself properly. It’s been stated a great many times on the SDMB that of all the industrialized nations, American students rank near or* at* the bottom in math and science skills. I think the problem is with American education in general.

I have no idea what the solution(s) might be, but I think this is one of the most serious problems facing America.

70

Threads like this remind me of a TV show that also annoyed me. In the show two women go to the mall and look for women who they feel are not dressed correctly for their body types. They pull a woman aside, and explain to her the mistakes they think she made. Then they take her to a store, and have her try on outfits they think will be more flattering for her particular figure.

Now this can be educational, most women would rather wear an outfit that makes them look more attractive rather than less attractive. My problem with the show is that they are judging these women based on what they chose to wear to the mall that day. When I go to the mall it is to buy clothes for other occasions, and I don’t put much emphasis on looking attractive while I am there. I chose what I wear to make my shopping experience easier. Comfortable shoes that are easy to slip off and on, shirts without buttons, no belts or scarves that will just take more effort to take of and put on. I have a limited time to shop and I don’t want to spend most of it changing in and out of a complicated outfit just so I look nice while at the mall.

Message board posts are to exchange information and ideas. Most of us have a limited amount of time to read and respond. Spelling and grammar rules are something I have always struggled with. When proof reading this post, I could go back and try to fix the sentances that have ended with prepositions, and look up “proof reading” and “look up” to see if those words need hyphens. I could double check the spelling of “sentance,” it doesn’t look quite right to me, and now this sentance is quite long and should probably be made into two sentances. But then I would only have a fraction of the time to learn or contribute.

I just don’t feel a need to spend the necessary time to make sure my posts are perfect. The same as I don’t feel the need to look my best when going to the mall to shop.

If I am writing a resume, or an article for a newsletter, I will take the extra time to correct any mistakes. But as long as I can write well enough on a message board so that people can understand my point or my question, I am not going worry over a misplaced comma. I don’t think a misplaced comma, or a misspelled word is any indication of someone’s intelligence. To be disgusted by these things is as pointless as being disgusted by someone wearing a sweatshirt and jeans to the mall. You can judge someone on these things, but does it really matter?

If you enjoy knowing your posts are always correct, good for you, but don’t expect the rest of us to really care. I would much rather spend time discussing an issue with someone who would judge my intelligence by what I have to say, not on how many spelling or gramatical errors I make.

71

Works for me. I am not above getting my hand slapped. When I wrote it it looked awkward, but I didn’t quite know how to make it better. Thank you.

See how easy that was? As I said earlier, I expect people to correct my errors. It makes me a better writer.

No, it was actually a mistake that I didn’t quite know how to correct. Again, thank you.

More to the point, when people don’t know the difference between there, they’re and their, three incredibly common English words, that speaks to a lack of education, a general carelessness, or an intentional defiance of convention, and it makes them look like dumbasses. If I were hiring and I got a resume from someone wanting to work for me with such fundamental, elementary errors I’d throw it away.

No, it was just a chance to address one of my pet peeves. Take it for what it’s worth. I wish I could say that it really matters in the grand scheme of things, but it doesn’t. It does to me, and that’s really all that matters.

Opinions vary, but I have the facts.

I don’t care if they don’t.

72

You’re welcome. Actually, your original text sounded less awkward, but unfortunately it did not follow the conventions of what I understand to be accepted grammar. I think that this may be the point that some are making here; on a message board we occasionally phrase our sentences for clarity at the expense of convention, because convention can occasionally sound stilted (at least in this context). Obviously there are occasions when only formality will do.

Easy? No. (See my comments below.) If your point is that it is possible to correct grammar while maintaining courtesy, I thought that was my point. However, I was hardly courteous. I would rather have adopted the tone of Foaming Cleanser. (S)he corrected me on a subtle (but important) use of a comma that I had never considered, but I hope that I will now take it to heart.

I would do the same. I work for an engineering firm, where numbers and drawings are our principal products. Nevertheless, our letters and our reports are a reflection on our competence and are (at least in my mind) equally important for our reputation. I know that I am making your point for you here. Nevertheless, in a setting such as the SD message board, I first look to posts for the exchange of ideas, and only then for their grammar. And, FWIW, I *agree * with your concern about declining literacy.

I think that it *does * matter. I also think that courtesy is equally important in the grand scheme of things.

Touche. :slight_smile: (Sorry, don’t know how to put the accent over the “e”). Anyway, time will tell…

While no malt beverages were harmed in the creation of my previous post, I can say that the nagging feelings I had after posting were very similar to those I have had in the past; the feelings that I have had not long after sending an angry email while imbibing. That may be the closest that I have ever been to flaming on this message board, and I can’t say that I like the feeling. (Well, I don’t like it now, as satisfying as it was at the time.) I appreciate the tone of your response. And FWIW, whether I agree with your politics or not, I truly appreciate the eloquence of your posts, and I share your feelings about literacy. (Have I said that before?) I also appreciate the thoughts of those who are not as eloquent. I’d be happy to keep the tone of this discourse civil in order to keep this thread here.

best to all,
plynck

73

Ah, this is all a mute point by now. Who care’s?

74

Nah. just BAD spellers. I bet these people write a thousand words or so NEVER.

75

Plynck
hold the ALT Key and type 130 (on the keypad and not on the numbers above the letters on the keyboard) and you’ll get é

Irregardless, I knew precisely what you meant.

76

Gaudere, why hast thou not forsaken me?

77

Or just scroll down to *0230 on this handy page, copy the é, and paste it into the text of your post.

In case you don’t know, the page is from wolf_meister’s site. In a current Pit thread he started, several posters have taken him to task for “excessive promotion” of www.1728.com, so I’m happy to plug the site as an unsolicited favor to him (as well as to anybody who likes accented letters, upside-down question marks, and similar arcana).

78

Shucks thanks Sternvogel
Yeah I guess some people think I overdo it with references to my website.

Of course, even if I’m seriously curtailing my website "plugs"doesn’t mean I’m going to refuse to help someone on the SDMB. (as is the case with Plynck).

Thanks again, Sternvogel

79

To continue the analogy of clothes - making a speech wearing ratty jeans versus making a speech dressed in an Armani suit will probably influence how seriously your audience takes you. If your gonna participate in a discussion in Great Debates, it definately wont help you’re cause if your sentances look like this one. :rolleyes:

The thing about discussion on the internet is that people can’t help judging you by your writing (at least at first). If you make a speech in front of an audience, people can’t help judging you by what you look like, how you’re dressed, how your voice sounds, etc. Of course, if your speech is brilliant enough it will probably convince them to forget about the fact you forgot to brush your hair - but it would make things much easier for you if you did, wouldn’t it? Likewise with grammar. Yes, you can make yourself understood without perfect grammar. No, it is not an absolute indicator of anyone’s intelligence. But, to echo my favorite book (heh) Eats, Shoots and Leaves, it’s like good manners. It makes things much more pleasant for all concerned. :slight_smile:

80

I think the funniest one I’ve come across so far was contained in an indignant e-mail from an employee who wanted to know where her service plague was. :smiley: You know, for all the years of dedicated service to the company. :wink: I don’t think it was a spelling error; she used the same spelling consistently throughout her message.

Hey, twenty-five years of service and they give you a plague. That’s gratitude.