Actually, this thread seems to be filled with people who advocate “kicking someone out” who dares go against the unwritten rule.
So again, if a restaurant is, as you say, “turning a blind eye” to someone breaking an unwritten rule, then what’s the harm to you, another patron of said restaurant? I have never gone to a restaurant to look at the other people. I go there to have good food prepared and served by someone else. If they don’t have a problem with my tshirt and jeans (or in this weather, sweater and jeans) why should anyone else?
And I also have yet to hear a single argument about why society demands these things. As many of you in this thread are saying, Shakespeare did not start as “high art” but has grown into that definition over time.
Maybe, horror of horrors, your opinion of clothes are becoming outdated as well?
I work in a public library as a clerk. All our dress code states is that men should wear long pants (women may wear skirts) and no shirts may have “slogans” on them unless they promote library programming (summer reading club, blood drive, etc).
Which means my tshirt and jeans are not only allowed, but encouraged!
So you admit that you cannot explain or defend your position?
I dealt with that strawman in post #171
No, I deal with it by not imposing my rules on others. People are not allowed to smoke in my apartment (for the reason that cigarette smoke damages things and I have many antiques I inted to keep for a long time. I do other things to preserve them as well). I ask visitors not to kill spiders and insects. I explain why I feel it is immoral, and nobody has objected so far.
Yes, but over the years I’ve gotten used to the government or other bureaucracies making strange demands. You must fill out form 37-b. Why? Nobody knows.
Only with those who cannot explain why a rule is necessary. I’ve loved almost every teacher I had in public school.
Why not? Unlike hearing and smell, sight is directional. Focusing on what is close obscures what is far away. Why can’t you ignore a person’s dress?
Doc. When you go into a place with a dress code and purposely don’t follow it out of some overblown sense of your individual importance, you are imposing your rules on others.
No. It’s a public library, and the dress code, as stated, provides for jeans and teeshirts. How would wearing jeans and teeshirts to a place that specifically allows them stick in anybodys craw? :rolleyes:
I would be interested to know how our band of merry rebels would deal with a restaurant that has a posted dress code (there are some that do) specifying dinner jacket attire is required? In that case the “unwritten” rule is written.
No, you misunderstand me, I think. I completely agree with you that many of society’s mores are arbitrary, and may seem logically capricious. What I’m pointing out is that certain rules DO exist, not that there tends to be a whole lots of rational basis for this. My position is that society expects certain things, and that one should do one’s best to follow those expectations, because it’s polite in many situations. And for the simple reason that being polite is a Good Thing. You’re asking me to explain the WHY behind these expectations, as if I invented them. I did not.
Your argument seems to be “Society has rules, but I don’t have to follow them, because I’m special! I do what I want! To hell with everyone else!” So, you are very aware of what society’s rules are, and are deliberately flaunting them because it’s convenient for you to do so. Do you see how that rubs people the wrong way?
Well, of course not! It’s not a debatable topic (well, you can, but you’re not going to change convention and the minds of those who disagree with you by mere argument).
It’s not a strawman. It’s inconsistent to rail against arbitrariness in one thing, while allowing it in another. Your application of logic to your own behavior strikes me as very much arbitrary.
I don’t know, why don’t we ask the folks in this thread who claim jeans and tshirts ruin the decor of a restaurant even when it’s not against the dress code.
Frankly, I’m surprised someone fell for the bait so quickly.
Then if we wanted to eat at that restaurant we’d wear the jacket and tie. Duh!
The fight is not against formal clothes, it’s against the expectation of formal (and uncomfortable) clothes when we don’t have to wear them. :rolleyes:
Again, the fact that you were accommodated says nothing about the propriety of your actions.
True, but many things are different than they were at the turn of the 17th-century. We have other ways to have a narrative performed for us now. The process of turning theater into a formal event took a century and a half and involved Cromwell, the Restoration, and the rise of the middle class.
In any case, theater survives by being a different sort of experience than a movie or a tv show. It adheres to a tradition of dress and behavior. That is part of the experience. It is a niche market, granted, but it is what keeps drama alive.
I’d say that you were well on your way Mr. Spock!
I kid, I kid. I love this discussion, I respect you and your posting, however, I am fascinated in how we are diametriclly opposed on this subject.
Which makes me wonder, you seem to be stressing somewhat of an extreme absolute in dress code interpretation and requirements, are you sugesting that these “dress code conventions” do not exist, or should not exist?
I have to admit that Doc made do a double-take when he posted that khakis, in general, are uncomfortable. My dress pants have a much thinner, “movable” fabric than any pair of jeans I ever owned. To my experience, the only kind of khaki pants that seem stiff and confining (until after a few washings) are Dickies work pants with Scotch Guard.
Then you need to choose a better counter example than a place with a written dress code allowing jeans and teeshirts if your arguement is against unwritten rules and the expectations of acceptance of a given, yet unstated standard.
To me, this can genuinely be paraphrased as ‘Because we say so’. I’ve never accepted that as a reason for the rules.
You didn’t invent the handshake either. But we know how it came about. You didn’t invent the tablecloth. But we know it was originally a communal napkin. We know who invented the tuxedo. We can trace the development of the modern suit back for centuries. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect some Doper to know when, where and why the suit became required for symphonies etc.
My argument is that no rule should be followed unless it can be properly explained and justified. And everybody is special.
I never said to hell with everyone else. Many of society’s rules exist for good reason and I follow them.
Yes. But I find their insistence that I follow a rule that they cannot explain or defend utterly baffling.
