The OP had it backwards. It should be ‘Why all the hatred against everyday clothes’.
I sure am glad I live in a part of the country where I don’t have to deal with this sillyness.
It goes hand and hand for me. Part of the reason I find them uncomfortable is that they are thin. Just don’t like them. Most dress pants are the same way. Comfort is a very personal thing. I don’t really like sweat pants, and I am more comfortable in shoes than without. I know what I am comfortable in. Formal clothes are not one of them.
If they have admitted and served me, then I am dressed appropriately.
BMalion I am saying that dress codes should not exist.
Bordelond So, the mere glimpse of a diner in casual dress will ruin your meal? I cannot understand this at all.
FairieBeth If an establishment has a written dresscode, I can do several things.
Not go.
Dress casually and attempt to gain admittance anyway
Dress to the letter of the code, and flaunt the spirit. What precisely does the dress code say? If a jacket and tie are required, jeans, t-shirt, a lime green jacket, and a tie that looks like a trout meet the requirement. Once my clown outfit is done, I’ll have a top hat and tails. They’re terrycloth with a gaudy pattern, and the buttons are brightly colored hands. But, they are a top hat and tails. Sadly, I don’t have enough material for pants.
Aha! So I see now. You’re just asking for some historical justification as to when and why people have been expected to present their best countenance via clothing in certain situations. And then, onjce you see that there is a historical imperative to dress for dinner, or the symphony, or other occaisions, then you’ll finally see the light and dress accordingly, falling into society’s expectations? Somehow I’m extremely doubtful that it would be that easy. If you’re looking for when suits and tuxedos in the modern sense because the de rigeur fashion for things such as the symphony, then I can certainly provide that. I can go through my Kyoto Costume Instutide History of 18th-20th century fashion books this evening and find very specific points in the evolutions of stuff like this.
But, c’mon. We both know that’s not what you’re looking for. You know what the rules are. If you don’t understand something extremely basic like dressing appropriately, I’m not sure I can help you at this point. Maybe you WERE raised by wolves?
And I think part of our fundamental philosophical disagreement may include your statement that everyone is special. Pish posh, say I. NO ONE is special.
Dang, triple post. Anyway, I disagree, the thread was inpired by the people in the “Cruise formal night” thread complaining about being asked to dress nicely for formal night. What a concept.
If you are mowing the lawn, I don’t care what you wear. If you are going out in public, dress appropriately. If normal attire at a wedding in Silverthorne is normal, go ahead and wear it. Everyone else will be. But most weddings down here in Denver aren’t that way, so don’t wear jeans. It’s all about being appropriate for the occasion. No one is asking for suits at the grocery store.
Me neither. But ‘Because Leo De Medici wanted more pockets and a jacket with shoulder pads’ is an infinitely more satisfying answer than ‘It’s tradition’ or ‘Because we say so’
But nobody can tell me why. I have to know why.
I know that most people do not consider a t-shirt and jeans appropriate attire for the symphony etc. I disagree. Partly because nobody can tell me why.
Strangely, Dad loves formal wear. He knows the best knot to use on a certain tie, and what knot goes with which shirt and suit. He has a large collection of tie pins and cuff links.
The Big Bang produced only hydrogen. The gas was lumpy and condensed in places to form stars. Every element but hydrogen was produced in a solar furnace. That includes the elements that make up you and I. We are, literally, the stuff of stars.
First, DocCathode, let me say that I appreciate the time you’ve put into your responses in this thread. Just as you are seeking justification for these expectations, I am intrigued by your stance, as well. My questions are not meant to give offense, but are made in an effort to understand a mindset that is foreign to me.
This would be what I would do. If I am unequipped, under dressed, etc for any event or venue, I will forgo the experience. I won’t feel like I am missing out or beset by unreasonable societal expectations. If I feel the need to partake in such things, I will make a better effort next time to be prepared.
But, why? I could understand this (even if I don’t agree) if the dress code were unwritten, but if there is a written code, why would you deliberately try to break it?
I think that because, within the law, the business decided what is and is not appropriate on their premises.
This is different than breaking into an argument, having a tryst on the table etc. Dress isn’t a behavior that begins after admission. They see the way I am dressed. They know I will be dressed that way throughout the meal. They cannot politely but sternly say “Sir, could you lower your voice. You are disturbing the other diners.” and expect my manner of dress to change. By admitting me, they have said that my dress is appopriate.
If youd didn’t mean having that diner ejected, or asking that the establishment not admit people in casual dress in the future, I can’t see what you did mean.
That’s exactly what I DID mean, so you did not misread me. If I have someone sitting behind me chatting on a cellphone during a movie, I will also alert the management. If they choose not to do anything about it, that is definitely their decision, and my decision not to patronize that theater any more. I will also definitely let a restaurant know that I will not return if they feel it’s fine to not uphold their own dress code.
Note that I haven’t ever actually spoken to management about someone inappropriately dressed, because it hasn’t really been necessary. Those underdressed were few and far between. But it’s becoming much more common, which is one of the reasons for this thread. So I definitely will entertain the idea of speaking to a restaurant manager now.
As an example, a few years ago I attended an event called “Last Dinner on the Titanic.” A local hotel does this every year, and I went and met some friends from an online costume/sewing forum. The three of us were dressed in periodesque costume (if not ENTIRELY historically accurate!). My two friends wore dresses based on the movie-one wore the mother’s “dinner gown”, the other the “swim dress” that Kate Winslet wore during the end of the movie. She made it herself, it looked gorgeous. I wore a long blue beaded evening gown with a black sash and a black beaded fringed shawl. ALL of us got major compliments.
A few other people wore period type costumes. Most people wore either formal or semi-formal attire.
ONE man came in black jeans and a cheap khaki colored tee shirt and work boots.
He definitely stood out, and while most of us just ignored him, you kind of thought, “well, damn, what’s the point?” We were supposed to be pretending to be back in 1912, complete with an authentic menu from the doomed ocean liner, a hotel employee dressed up like Captain Edward Smith, etc.
Remember last year, when Dick Cheney attended a funeral in Moscow dressed in a barn coat and a ski cap with a big logo on it? (I forget the exact event, I think it was either Raisa Gorbachev’s funeral, or a memorial for the Holocaust). Every other world leader and representatives were wearing dressy black overcoats (wool, so you know they’d be warm) and either fedoras or those woolly hats they wear in Russia (I think they’re called ushankas?). Cheney looked like he was going out to shovel snow. It made a terrible impression, like the US just didn’t give a shit. Some pointed out that he was an older man with a bad heart, but he could have worn some layers underneath a heavy wool coat and those Russian hats would be pretty warm.
Well, it’s kinda like that. You may THINK you look “spiffy” in jeans and a cartoon teeshirt, but I’ll bet most people think you look like someone whose parents didn’t teach you any better. There’s a time and a place for everything. How would you feel if your rabbi wore jeans and a concert tee to a funeral?
Spiffy is a dressy shirt, tie, a nice suit, maybe some suspenders, a hat.
Now I’m not one of those people who think women should always wear dresses, and that jeans are NEVER appropriate outside of the fields, but I sometimes lament that our society has stopped dressing up on a regular basis. Women never wear hats and gloves are something for cold weather, or very formal occassions. Men used to wear hats (NOT ballcaps!) and ties.
Think of the words of ZZ Top, DocCathode: “Every girl’s crazy 'bout a sharp dressed man.” That’s often true. Why do you think “Queer Eye” was such a hit?
Your jeans and tees may be fine for a picnic, or going out to a bar, or for pizza. But not to Le Shez Poof or a funeral.
I don’t like dress codes of any kind. To me, they are pointless and arbitrary rules which continue to exist only because they have become tradition. If the only complaint people have about me is my manner of dress, what does that say about the importance of dress codes? ‘That polite, friendly man, over there is wearing jeans. I want him thrown out!’
This is a last resort. Off the top of my head, I can’t see it coming up. I could see myself throwing a nice jacket and tie over my jeans and a t-shirt. I may also cut the cuffs off of a dress shirt, make them into French cuffs and wear them with cufflinks. They have a dress code. I meet it. If this wasn’t what they had in mind, they should have been more specific. But, now that I’m dining in their fine establishment, people should ask themselves if jeans and a t-shirt would be worse than what I’m currently wearing. They might also realize that jeans and a t-shirt are not an attempt to insult them. They are just what I wear.
Can you at least concede that those sharing this view are very much outnumbered, and that your individual subversion is highly unlikely to change the status quo? Not that this should necessarily impact upon you in any way … but surely you can conceded these points academically?
I’ll thank you not to compare to me to Dick Cheney.
I don’t care what most people think.
For me, except for the weddings etc of people I care about, and business situations, the time for jeans and a t-shirt is anytime. The place for jeans and a t-shirt is anywhere.
There are many pointless things you do, or avoid doing, around people who are mourning.
In your opinion. In mine, spiffy can indeed be jeans and a t-shirt.
And the blacks and the women knew their place. Obviously, that bit of the past should stay dead. Why should hats, gloves and tie be revived? I like hats. I hate the idea of being told to wear one.
And those aren’t the women I’m interested in. OTTOMH You like fantasy literature, Russian culture and history, and have several cats. A sharp dressed man may catch your attention. But, you’ll end up dating a guy who loves Zelazny, White and Lackey, has a matreshka painted with the leaders of a USSR, and spends a few minutes saying hi to the kitties everytime he enters your house.
Because the Gay Agenda is destroying our beloved nation!
My jeans and t-shirt are fine for Le Chez Poof, in my opinion. When it comes to funerals, either the person was close enough to me that it warrants dressing up in their memory, or distant enough that I stay home.
All the evidence I’ve seen points to casual wear becoming accepted at most places. Philadelphia does have a symphony. Over the past ten years or so, people have been dressing more casually. Most business have more casual dress codes.
