Oh, and BoringDad, you get extra plus points for actually reading the whole thread. 
Even in snooty old NY, you can get admitted to most venues or events in clean jeans, a clean non-content-bearing T shirt, and a suit jacket. Extra points if any of these are black. If they’re ALL black, you can get in anywhere.
I think the point of diehards like Doc Cathode is that they should be able to dress the same for Le Bernardin as for a comic book convention or beer and chicken wings, or receive a faultless iron-clad fireproof explanation why not. I would think Doc’s wearing his lime green terry cloth tails would be much less obnoxious than facing off with some cotton-headed maitre d’ who probably couldn’t even get into matchbook-cover art school, let alone engage in the near-Talmudic level of logical discourse that he seems to call for.
I’ve been lurking around this thread and am finding it very interesting. I never knew people had such strong opinions about clothing (as someone else has mentioned as well).
I admit, like Guinastasia, to being somewhat of a clothing snob. I like to dress nicely, and I love having an excuse to do so. I also admit to being bothered when people are underdressed for certain places/occasions. To me, dressing appriopriately just seems like good manners; something you don’t notice when it’s there, but jarring when it’s absent. If I went into a nice restaurant and saw someone in jeans, it wouldn’t ruin my meal - I probably wouldn’t think about it after the initial glance - but it would definitely be something I would notice and mentally wince at. One of the reasons I dress up when the occasion calls for it is that I would rather not have people wincing at me. (The other reason, of course, is that I enjoy it.)
It goes both ways though. I would think a teacher dressed in an evening gown (for class) just as jarring. To everything there is a season and all that.
That’s part of the problem here. Some of the people that like to dress up can’t seem to understand that there are people different than them. I will dress up. But it’s generally a PITA. You want to dress up? Knock yourself out.
I’m with BoringDad. I will wear sweats for maybe an hour on a Saturday while I check email, before I take a shower. After that, it’s right into jeans.
I find jeans plenty warm (I deal with snow 6 months out of the year), and would never go out in sweats. I don’t even like hanging around the house in them.
Wow, I can’t believe how big this thread has gotten in just four days. I suppose some of the high emotions on this issue are because there is actually a cultural change going on regarding what is considered appropriate attire in public places. The society is getting more casual. But, really, this is nothing new. It’s always been the case. Look at what was considered appropriate appearance 50 years ago or 100 years ago or 150 years ago. Every generation disappoints its elders in its sartorial choices and every generation seems more slovenly to those who came before (and those who adopt their values).
Generally speaking, I’m probably one of those slobs that some people in this thread are complaining about. But, really, unless you are my boss or my client, I don’t care what assumptions or impressions you have regarding me based on my appearance. I really don’t care.
On the other hand, I do sometimes enjoy dressing up for the occasion. This fall, I was asked to be a member of an old friend’s wedding party, and I quite enjoyed getting dressed up in a tux. But it’s definitely not something I would want to do every day. If I’m going out for a romantic dinner with my wife on St. Valentine’s Day or our anniversary, I quite enjoy dusting off my black suit and putting on a snappy bow tie, but when I had to wear a suit every day for work, I hated it. If I was going on the cruise that was referenced in another thread, I would quite enjoy dressing up for the one “formal night.” On the one occasion my job sent me to the Greenbrier resort to attend a conference, I didn’t mind following the resort’s explicit instructions on attire in the public areas of the hotel.
But that, to me, is the nub: The rule is explicit. If you are my boss and you expect me to dress a certain way, I expect it to be expressly stated in the employee handbook. If you are a fancy resort or a restaurant and your high price tag is partly dependent on how your clientele dresses, then I expect you to have a sign on the door that says “jackets and ties required” and to turn people away who refuse to comply (and there are plenty of restaurants that do do this). The definitely casual Tex-Mex place across the street has a sign that says “No sleeveless T-shirts.” Taco Bell and McDonald’s say “No shirt no shoes no service.” If you have a standard, state it and enforce it.
If for some reason, a grocery store decides that it can fill a market niche by setting a dress code for shoppers, then by all means do so, but put a sign on the door that says “No flip-flops or sweat pants.” It’s all fine with me. They have their standards, they state them explicitly, and they enforce them.
If you are the member of a fru-fru private club that requires formal attire, then, fine, you probably won’t let me join. Or if you do, you’ll give me a written dress code and deny me entrance if I don’t comply. Fine. These are all private places that set their own rules.
Otherwise, I’m going to come as I am. I don’t often wear sweat pants or flip flops, but if that’s what I’m wearing and I’m comfortable and I don’t feel like changing, then that’s what I’m wearing to the Kroger or the Whole Foods market.
If I show up to the opera in jeans and sneakers, and they let me in, then I don’t care what the other patrons think of me. (I have gone to the opera both in suits and in sneakers, sometimes both.) If the establishement lets me, I’ll wear what I like and if you don’t like it, I have no use for you or your opinion.
But these are all private establishments. I strenuously object to any dress code when it comes to public matters, whether a school, or a courtroom, or a visit to the White House or the U.S. Capitol. Those are public situations. They are mine as a member of the public, and no one has any business setting a dress code for admission. Yes, it might be wise for someone to choose to dress up, if, for example, he is a lawyer pleading a case. But if I’m just a member of the public who wants to see justice being done, leave me out of your dress code. (Yes, okay, there are minimal standards: If I’m visibly dirty, stinking of urine, and exposing body parts – but as someone has mentioned, it isn’t interesting to argue the extremes.)
On the matter of the fine arts, I might add that there is also a marked trend towards de-formalising it, and I think it’s a matter of survival. The opera and the symphony and museums have been marginalised in popular culture because of their perceived snob appeal and they are desperate to appear to a wider audience. Shakespeare, as has been mentioned, wrote for slobs, not for snobs, and if the fine arts are going to survive, they’re going to have to go back to that.
You left polite society behind several posts ago, so why defend what you eschew?
Wow! I had completely misjudged your character.
Sweats have elastic at the waist. Yuck. Some sweat pants have elastic at the ankle. Yuck. Sweats that don’t have elastic at the ankle are all swishy. Yuck.
Jeans fit me very well. No waist pinching and no elastic. They are firm and durable and multi-season. And below 10F you can wear flannel lined jeans.
And, I might like to add, while some of you feel justified in making judgments regarding peoples’ character based on their clothing, I feel comfortable making judgments based on posters here writing things like decór and impeccible.
You must not be shaped like me 
Poking fun at myself, not you
Of course, you meant impeccable. Gaudere’s Law is an MF, don’t you know.
My point was that they were both misspelled.
And that is fair. I’m not the best looking person in the world, even when I dress up (I’m no slouch either). I don’t always have the exactly proper dress for the occation with the correct accessories. The point is, when the occasion asks it, I make the effort. Likewise, I TRY to use proper English and spelling when I post here, out of respect for the other posters. Do I always succeed? No - but I make the attempt. I don’t say “Gee, I don’t care that the culture of this place values correct English and spelling, I’ll just type incomplete sentences, not correct my typos, not bother to even think about spelling. They are smart, they’ll figure it out.” Some people are saying its not even worth making the effort to conform to the culture of a place. Frankly, its like coming here and speaking L33t.
Something occured to me:
If you posit that visuals are easily ignored, how would you feel about:
- someone picking their nose at the next table, well within your line of sight?
- someone chewing their food, spitting it back out onto their plate, and then eating it again, over and over?
- someone at the next table, well within your line of sight, removing their shirt and revealing a none-too-attractive physique (fat rolls, super-hairy, profuse sweat, whatever you least like)?
Now, there should be no health concerns here – no one is touching your food or anything like that. So, how steely is your resolve to ignore the sights around you in such cases?
I’ll grant you that out-of-place attire is a lesser social sin than any of the above. But that’s all I’ll grant you, since you seem to have made it clear that if someone sees something about you that they don’t like, that’s their problem.
Please note that I realize there’s no hope of changing your mind. I am earnestly curious about the lengths you, personally, would go to avoid looking at the above … and also how the above situations fit into your “just don’t look” philosophy?
The difference is that this forum is nothing more than a place for communication, so it by definition matters what and how you are communicating.
For many people, how they choose to dress is not necessarily meant to communicate anything to other people. Sometimes, perhaps. Sometimes, definitely not. Furthermore, what they are saying is that even if someone does choose to take their attire as a message, they are justified in ignoring it.
What they are saying is that they demand the right to choose for themselves when to conform to the tastes of others. Participating in an online discussion is definitely not like simply stepping outside your door to do things you want to do.
And, as I have already observed, the weight of the movement is behind those who prefer to be more and more casual. That is becoming the societal standard. So it’s pointless for people here to be arguing from the standpoint that “That’s the standard; that’s the way it is.” Or, “this is the expectation and when you choose to ignore it, you’re being rude.” The societal trend is that that people get to choose for themselves what is appropriate and when they want to live up to certain standards, especially when those standards were arbitrarily set in the first place.
So if I’m going to a restaurant that promulgates and enforces a dress code, from “No shirt no shoes no service” to “Jacket and tie required,” I am perfectly comfortable in having to decide whether I want to meet that code before showing up. If my employer says I have to dress a certain way in order to keep my job, I will do so. If I have clients who expect a certain standard of dress, it’s up to me to decide whether I want to keep their business.
However, I am not going to meet some vague, shifting, and ultimately personal standard of dress just for stepping outside the door. As you can see in this thread, even among those who wish for some kind of minimum standard can’t come up with a single one. To the extent that there’s anyone here saying that I should dress a certain way just to leave home because “people have to look at you” or “your appearance makes an impression” or “it’s inconsiderate and rude not to look your best,” I’m with those who tell you to mind your own business. I’m not always interested in making a good impression on people, especially those who just happen to be within visual distance and have no particular relationship to me.
On a macro scale, this is a community, with standards of behavior and expectations. Like a restaurant with an unwritten dress code, some violations will see you banned, others will just make it unpleasant for the other members of the community.
This place is not merely a forum for communication for MANY people here. If it were, there would be no rules about being a jerk. I can communicate quite well when I’m a jerk - and there are posters who made a career of communicating well while walking the jerk like (I still miss Collunsbury - someone who combined both great communication skills with jerk behavior). Likewise, a symphony performance is not just about listening to music for many of the attendees. It may be just about that for you, but for someone else its about completely leaving their ordinary life.
Note that I said, “It makes a difference what and how you are communicating.” Furthermore, the rules here are explicit and they are enforced. If you’re comparing this to a situation in which there are no explicit and enforced rules to contend with, then you’re out of luck so far as I’m concerned. If all you’re offering me is that your own personal buzz is being killed, then that’s not going to cut it for me.
And remember we’re talking about people dressing casually. That is qualitatively different from someone who is behaving in a disruptive manner. If I start speaking in an abusive manner to you in any public place, regardless of the formality of the venue, you have cause to be offended. If I’m doing nothing but offending your personal sense of style because I’m wearing sneakers to an orchestra performance, then you don’t have an argument that I’m doing something to you.
If there are people who are interested in making a symphony performance more than just about listening to the music then they had better (1) persuade the symphony to enforce an explicit dress code or (2) pony up for a private performance where they can enforce their own dress code. Because otherwise, I’m coming to the symphony dressed the way I want to, not dressed to conform to someone else’s fantasy life.
And note, again, that I suggested that it’s in the symphony’s own interest to change its reputation as being within the bosom of exclusive society. Orchestras and other fine arts organizations increasingly want people to show up whether or not they want to become members of an exclusive set, because being exclusive has marginalised fine arts and has resulted in less financial support for them. That’s a reality of life for you. And if the symphony itself sees fit not to mandate a dress code, then I’m very well going to take advantage of that fact and dress in a manner that pleases me, for whatever reason.
If you want your exclusive fantasy orchestra performance, then you and your fantasy life friends are going to have to get together the moolah to hire your own private venue, your own private performers, and limit the guest list to those who are willing and able to pay the bill and conform to any dress code you wish to impose.
Boring Dad
Homeland security allows canes and walking sticks now. Canes and walking sticks are explicitly allowed on board planes, and not counted as carry on luggage in every carry on baggage policy I’ve checked. I might have trouble getting a cane, staff, or stick on board. But, my parents could do it without a problem.
I can wear shorts until fifty degrees or so. This is part of the reason I dislike suits so much. The average person will not be too hot in one, but I will.
I agree with you on sweat pants.
Basandre
But, why is it supposed to show respect? And if a suit or gown is a show of respect, why are they not customary attire for trips to the doctor, optometrist, dentist, or for voting in Presidential elections?
It isn’t about respect. They are worn because they are expected, because it is tradition, because we say so.
Nope. I show my parents respect all the time. They know that I genuinely respect them as well as love them. I still hate wearing a suit. I will do it for them (last time it was their 40th anniversary dinner.) because I love them so much. Mom, Dad, and the other people I care about don’t have to do anything to get me to show them respect. I do it all the time in ways that are obvious to any one.
Maddy Strut
I agree that clothing snobs exist at all levels. I still remember when Champion sweat shirts became the hot thing back in high school. Each shirt was about thirty dollars. The haves owned many Champions in various styles and colors. The have nots had one or two Champions and were made to feel inferior because of it.
The terry cloth tails are not lime green, but a pattern of squares and rectangles in dark blue, burgundy, dark beige, and a shade of dark green I can’t quite name.
Again, I am wearing jeans and a light aqua t-shirt with a picture of manatees printed on it. I think I am dressed nicely.
Unless it’s an event in the life of somebody I care about, or a business situation, I’m not underdressed for it.
To me, dress has nothing to do with manners. Also, this is my genuine experience I am not simply trying to be contrary, I do notice good manners.
They can wince at me all they want.
IMO Shakespeare wrote for slobs and snobs, and did it in the same sentence.
Your analogy is flawed. The sole purpose of the SDMB is for poster to communicate in English text. Formal English is acceptable. Slang is acceptable. One of the reasons 733t is not viewed is acceptable is that it may not be understood by other posters. The purpose of this board is communication.
The purpose of the symphony is to listen to the orchestra. The purpose of the restaurant is to eat. Neither purpose is concerned with dress.
Reading on, Ascenray has beat me to it.
On further reading
There are rules here on what can be expressed. Violating those rules will result in warnings, suspension, and bannings.
Bully for them. However, as the symphony has no rules concerning dress, and will not warn, suspend or ban me based on the manner of my dress, others’ feelings that the purpose of the symphony is ‘to leave their ordinary life’ are not shared by the symphony. Based upon the rules, the symphony agrees with me that the purpose is to hear music.
Further, to say that the purpose of formal wear is ‘to leave your ordinary life’ makes little sense. Any person whose everyday wear is a suit can attend wearing what is effectively their work uniform. EG A waiter for a local, low cost, caterer wears a tuxedo when working. He may attend the symphony or a five star restaurant dressed in his uniform, without others disapproving of his dress. However, for him to ‘leave his ordinary life’ he would have to wear something other than a tuxedo.
(on refreshing the page, thank you Ascenray)
I can point to concrete examples. Attorney General Janet Reno wore a suit to work every day. Her way of ‘leaving ordinary life’ was to put on jeans and a t-shirt and go kayaking once a week.
When Ronald Reagan was President, he wore a suit almost every day. His way of ‘leaving ordinary life’ was to visit his ranch, put on work boots, jeans, a t-shirt, and a cowboy hat and get dirty.
Tell me, when Reagan or Reno was wearing black tie at another gala, or awards dinner, or conference, do you think either one felt as though they were ‘leaving their ordinary life’ in the slightest? Or do you think that they viewed black tie as a uniform and longed for the time they could change into jeans and really ‘leave their ordinary life’?
Bordelond
These are not comparable behaviors. Again, disgust and aversion to certain bodily fluids (mucus among them) is innate. Distaste for jeans and a t-shit must be learned. As far as I know, shirts in restaurants are required by the health code.
I want to chime in with my own fascinating humble opinion. As a professional (HS teacher), I was required to dress in at least “business casual” (Shirt & tie, no need for suitcoat). I had to do it, so I did it, took pride in it, and made the best of it by starching and ironing my clothes and shining my shoes.
Those teacher colleagues of mine who dressed casual (in opposition to County Policy, may it be flogged mercilessly forevermore) tended to get pictures of themselves put in newspaper articles about education, prompting plenty of idgits to write judgemental letters to the editor complaining about “no wonder our children aren’t learning - the teachers don’t even wear Business Casual Clothes!!!”
The point is being made once again - certain people judge us based on how we dress. It falls to each of us to make the choice of whether or not it is important to us what those certain people think. When I was making money professionally, I needed to dress professionally. I could always stop doing so, but then risk getting fired.
Now, I’m a student in Culinary school, and what do you know - I have to meet a dress code. I starch & iron just like before, and wear my hanky, and love those checkered pants. The dress is just as strict.
In my personal life, I like dressing up nice, just because I like the way I look. It is also important to me to “fit in” certain situations that I want to be in - married people parties and the like. I also like to dress down. I’ll bet I’d fit in pretty well with some of our less “dressy” posters - why be judgemental when I can make a friend?
To Martin Hyde: I (1) am suffering from mental illnesses (shyness, depression, assholery), (2) was a social outcast in HS and (3) am currently a member of a low socio-economic class. Not “ghetto,” because ghetto folk in Orlando tend to spend lots of money on clothes, few of which are traditional formalwear. But I like dressing up and don’t despise looking nice. Looks like I’m an exception to your general theory.
I tend to dress up depending on what I’m doing. I like to dress up sometimes (I like to think I look reasonably nice in a suit, and my suit is comfortable to wear in all but the warmest weather). If I’m going to the grocery store, I probably won’t do much more than pull on a pair of pants, shoes, and a shirt (well, and my glasses, without which I’m crosseyed and driving is somewhat problematic).
If I’m going to church with my family, it’s a button-up shirt and slacks if I have them, more often it’s a clean pair of blue jeans and a presentable t-shirt or polo shirt. If I go to church with a ladyfriend, the suit gets pulled from it’s dry-cleaning plastic wrap.
When I got a student job working in an administrative office on campus last year, I showed up for my first day in khaki slacks and a polo shirt. I was jokingly criticized by the salaried workers because I over-dressed for work. After that, I tended to wear blue-jeans (or slacks) and a nice t-shirt (always careful not to wear one of my more off-color shirts.)
Oftentimes it just depends on what I feel like wearing. One week I went to school every day in slacks and button-up dress shirts.
BTW, do any female Dopers have to deal with this: I wear a skirt-a CASUAL skirt, maybe a long flowy cotton one with a baby tee, or a jeans skirt with a sweater, just for the hell of it, and inevitably, someone will ask me, “Why are you all dressed up?”
Am I the only one who gets annoyed by the fact that now a skirt is automatically “dress up?”