I have the same problem. That, and I think skirts make my hips look huge.
I find it very confusing. IMO, a skirt is simply an alternative to pants. There are skirts which are counterparts to jeans, khakis, slacks etc.
I understand what you’re saying, but I think it also depends on what folks are accustomed to seeing as your attire. I teach primary school, so my work “uniform” is khaki pants, a sweater/fitted top of some sort, and a pair of flats. I wear my hair up, usually, to keep it out of the glue* and such. I wear very little jewelry other than earrings because I got tired of cleaning the glue* out of it all. There are occasions, though, when I deviate from this routine. I’ll always get the “What are you all dressed up for?” questions. Sheesh. It’s a wool skirt and boots, you’d think I had worn a tiara. I think it’s the change from the expected, rather than the clothing itself, that prompts the comment.
- There is no such thing as “just use a little glue” to an elementary age child. They will invariably coat the entire surface to be glued with at least 1/4 inch of the stuff.
Yet people on this board who take pains to communicate in an intellegent fashion are respected, and people who don’t bother are ridiculed. We have minimum standards of behavior and not following them will result in banning - like a restaurant demands a shirt and shoes. But we have unwritten standards of behavior to become a respected member of the community - using proper Engligh, proper capitalization, not posting in purple, using complete words instead of LOL, RMAOLOTF!!! Not bothering will not get you banned, but will make people think unfavorably of you.
Now, you may not wish to bother to do this here, and you may not bother to dress up when you go to the symphony. Whether the mods ban you here or the ushers don’t seat you is their business. But in either place, I will feel that you are disrespecting me and the community that participates if you don’t perform to community standards. Perhaps in both cases, eventually the community standard will change, and it will become as acceptable to go to the symphony in ratty jeans as it now is to go in khakis. Perhaps around here it will eventually become acceptable to with bare literacy. I will bemoan both, as I feel both show a disrespect to the community standards as well as a desire to “get by” with the minimum instead of making some effort.
But, in general, I actually care what other Dopers think of me. The same is not true of other theatergoers or diners.
These are not “minimum standards”. They are the rules. Other things are not ‘higher standards’. They are customs, traditions, etc and nothing more.
How many times must I repeat this? I do not care whether other diners or audience members respect me.
Whether I am banned or seated is not an arbitrary decision. The ushers and moderators make that decision according to the rules- not the rules you wish existed and not by tradition or custom, but the actual rules.
Once again, exactly how and why is it disrespectful? Once again, I do not care if the other diners feel I am being disrespectful. Further, the audience at the symphony or the diners at Le Bec Fin are NOT a “community that participates”. They are people listening to music, and eating.
Community standard? So, the dress code is just a community standard? Then, I see no reason whatsoever why I should follow it.
That change is already underway.
Ascenray and I have explained why this analogy is flawed. Why do you bring it up again? The purpose of the symphony is to provide music to a paying audience. Clothing plays no part in that. The purpose of the SDMB is communication through text. Grammar and spelling are central to that.
Do you understand the phrase you keep using? If the majority of symphony patrons show up in jeans and t-shirts, that is not disrespectful to community standards. It IS the community standard. At that point, if you continued to wear a gown, you would be the one not dressing to community standards. Community standards are set by the community as a whole, not by you Dangerosa. At present, people wearing khakis and polo shirts to the symphony are NOT disrespecting community standards. The current community standard is that khakis and polo shirts are perfectly acceptable.
This is the second time somebody in this thread has used the phrase “get by”. What, exactly, does that mean?
I care only about getting in. If I will be admitted and served in jeans and a t-shirt, no other effort is necessary.
At the risk of flogging a horse that already has rigor mortis…
This debate isn’t about money. Kids are wearing sneakers that cost easily double what my last pair of dress shoes cost. Women are buying “designer” jeans for more than I paid for a pair of wool dress slacks. “Designer” t-shirts (which look just like the cheap ones to me) often cost a lot more than the tux shirt I bought on sale for $29.95.
This debate isn’t about comfort. I’m equally comfortable in a good suit or a pair of jeans and a sweatshirt. I hate sweat pants (can’t stand elastic waists and they’re too loose–always getting caught in stuff).
Nobody seems to agree on the “polite” and “respect” issues. Personally, I feel that “polite” means not judging me based on what I wear–or at least keeping it to yourself if you do. DocCathode pegged “respect” in one respect (parents) and completely missed it in another (restaurants). Businesses work hard to establish a “feel” or “atmosphere” that will attract their target clientele. You can see it in the decor, the menu, the selection of beverages at the bar, the way the servers are dressed, and the way the food is presented. If a restaurant is trying to create an upscale atmosphere and attract people in suits and dresses, you’re being disrespectful by showing up in jeans and a t-shirt. The other patrons are coming because they want the atmosphere that restaurant is trying to create. You’re a part of the decor, whether you like it or not. If an “upscale” group comes in and finds a bunch of patrons in jeans and t-shirts, they just might leave. I’m not saying the snobs who left are right, but you’ve just hurt the owners of the restaurant by your slavish adherence to your t-shirt wardrobe.
BTW, Doc, I dunno about Janet Reno but given Reagan’s showman background and (apparent) general personality, he may have seen “dressing up” for formal events as a chance to strut while on-duty.
That other clothes can also be expensive is irrelevent. Judging by the Men’s Warehouse ads, I can buy a low end suit for $200. That’s roughly what I pay for 10 t-shirts, 10 pairs of jeans, or 10 pairs of shoes.
Other people may be wearing expensive jeans and sneakers. But, I’m not.
But I am very uncomfortable in a suit. So, for me, the debate is partly about comfort.
Again, somebody tells me it’s disrespectful and does not explain why.
Then, why do they buy food?
Further, I don’t care what the other diners think of me or what impression my clothing has on them.
I am not part of the decor. Repeating that I am will not make it true.
That’s their right.
Wrong. The staff admitted me. They knew what I was wearing and that I would be wearing it throughout my meal. If my being there drives away other patrons (something I doubt in the extreme. You don’t walk away from your reservation at a four star restaurant because some stranger at another table isn’t dressed to your satisfaction.), then the responsibility for that also rests on the staff.
More, you seem to be assuming that diners wearing jeans and t-shirts will result in decreased business for four star restaurants. Khakis and polo shirts have resulted in increased business for the symphony and opera. Why won’t the same be true of restaurants?
The point, Doc is that the restaurant staff are being polite by admitting you, even though you’re potentially costing them money. I’ve had to ask someone to leave my store because he was being offensive (he was swearing loudly), and I don’t like to have to do that. I don’t have a rule posted on the wall that says “don’t keep saying ‘fuck’ loudly in the store.” People understand that politeness means behaving in a manner that doesn’t bother the people around you.
Why do you want to go in that restaurant in the first place? There must be dozens of others where the other patrons aren’t wearing suits and ties. Either pick a place that fits the way your dressed, or change your clothes. If I’m wearing a suit and I want to eat at the crab house, I’ll leave my jacket and tie in the car.
Then, you agree that any potential loss is in fact the responsibility of the staff?
How is their admitting me “poilte”? Either there is a mandatory dress code, and they will not admit me, or there is not a mandatory dress code and therefore there is no reason not to admit me.
[QUOTE[ I’ve had to ask someone to leave my store because he was being offensive (he was swearing loudly), and I don’t like to have to do that. I don’t have a rule posted on the wall that says “don’t keep saying ‘fuck’ loudly in the store.”[/QUOTE]
That comparison doesn’t hold up. I don’t suddenly change into jeans and a t-shirt once inside. They know what I will be wearing when they admit me.
My definition of politeness does not include dress.
The food. Possibly the decor. For me, the decor does not include the clothes of other patrons.
Have you read this thread?
I must have said at least a dozen times, that as far as I am concerned any restaurant on the face of the earth fits jeans and a t-shirt.
Why? As far as I’m concerned, the only valid reason would be to avoid staining it.
I messed up the coding and missed a sentence I wanted to comment on. This is what happens to me when I forget to preview.
I don’t care what the other patrons are wearing, so long as they are not in violation of indecent exposure laws and the health code. I repeat myself again (Really, have you read this thread?) the other patrons are background noise that has no effect on my experience.
There are many, many ways of showing respect. Most people generally engage in more than one at once, even. When I visit my parents, I show them respect by not cursing, by not wearing a string bikini, by complimenting them (on the food, on any new work done on the house, etc.), by not showing up in the middle of the night and waking them, by using the manners that they taught me,… The list goes on. These things are respectful because my parents value them. When I visit a doctor’s office , I show respect by being on time, by not leaning on them to give me free samples of medication, by letting the doctor know if his staff was particularly pleasant or helpful, by being polite (there’s those manners again). Once again, this is what is valued by the people in a doctor’s office. I doubt the doctor would care if I complimented a new piece of waiting room decor, but my parents seem to like it when I compliment a new piece of decor in their house. My parents don’t care if I show up at the exact time I said I would (and in fact, I’m more likely to estimate an arrival time), but the doctor’s office staff sure seems to appreciate it.
Voting in a Presidential election is a process, not a person. No process values what you’re wearing (ok, no process values anything at all).
Perhaps I should repeat this: You don’t get to decide what other people find respectful.
Bowing is respectful in Japan, speaking softly is respectful in Guatemala. How about this as part of a definition of “show of respect”: an action that the person you are showing respect to will value. The better you know someone, the better you can judge what they will find respectful. If you don’t know someone personally and you want to show respect, there are standard societal ways. In case you want to ask how you should know about these, many are picked up just by living in the society. Others you find out about when someone tells you. Please don’t try to pretend not to know what society considers respectful dress - you obviously know it as you advocate flaunting it.
For my case, you are wrong on both these counts.
Money -
I can currently wear jeans and casual buttondown collar shirt to work. I can also wear these riding my bike or throwing my children in the leaf pile. This means that I only have to purchase one set of clothing. Were I required to wear “fancier” clothes to work or out to eat, I would have to purchase and maintain an entire separate wardrobe. That would be a financial burden on me. In fact, I was recently elected to minor public office (school board) and if I were to say “Oh, now it is appropriate for me to dress up to go to the meetings!” I would be forced to buy several hundreds of dollars worth of clothing, which I can’t readily afford.
Comfort -
I in fact do own a custom tailored suit. (It is my only suit.) I am still far more comfortable in jeans. Khakis are perfectly comfortable as well, but dress khakis don’t hold up as well as jeans to the wear I put them through, and non-dres khakis really aren’t much fancier than jeans anyway.
Sorry, for the double post but I thought I’d better mention something in case it gets nitpicked. Something can still be respectful even if the direct action isn’t valued, as most people value it if someone was trying to be respectful. Note the generalities: giving cookies to an officemate is usually respectful, even if this officemate happens to be diabetic. If you give cookies to a diabetic officemate, and they take offense (even though you didn’t know about the illness), then you weren’t respectful in that person’s eyes.
Another poster told me I was “dressing to the room”. A room doesn’t value anything either.
You’ve failed to convince me that people wear suits as an expression of respect.
You haven’t offered any explanation of how a suit shows respect, or why a suit shows respect. If I don’t get to decide what others find respectful, then it follows that you don’t either.
I may want to be polite to somebody I don’t know. But my respect must be earned. I don’t respect my parents simply because they are my parents. I respect them because they have earned it.
You’ve said nothing to show that suits are worn to restaurants out of respect and not tradition. I do advocate the abolition of dress codes. But, this has nothing to do with respect.
So. If the sweat pants are uncomfortable, some of this is about comfort.
I feel the same way about dress clothes. They are uncomfortable to me.
And if dress clothes are more expensive than sweat pants, some of this is about money.
I’m not advocating people showing up in pj’s to the steak house. But some people seem to think that jeans and a t-shirt is going to ruin their meal. I’d hate to imagine what happens to these folks when something really bad happens.
Not to mention Nancy’s penchant for designer labels.
(Oh, and before when I said “pressed jeans”, I just meant take an iron and pat them a little. It’s best for an old, faded, kind of worn pair, it just makes them look a little bit better, makes them look newer. Just a little trick I learned.)
But, but… isn’t the whole point of old jeans that they look old? Wasn’t there an entire industry a few years ago dedicated to artificially aging your jeans?
Don’t try to understand it… crazy kids and their hipster fashions…grumble, grumble
-stonebow, fellow boring dad
I think I see her point. To many people, there is a distinction between jeans that are wrinkled, frayed, have grass stains etc and a pair of jeans that are unwrinkled and free of wear. It’s similar to the distinction the same people make between slacks and a sportcoat, and a suit.
OTTOMH
Hank Hill probably thinks that any pair of jeans is fine for working on a project in his garage. But, if he’s going to a Tom Landry Middle School sports event, then he needs a pair of jeans without paint or grease stains, and no tears or patches. He may even have Peggy press them. Though, Bobby could probably do an even better job.
That boy ain’t right.
I must be off to do holiday things. If all goes well, I’ll be back in a week or so. But, many of the experimental latkes of the past have had unforseeable and rather severe side effects. Latke J5-B left me staring in fascination at my hands for two weeks. Latke F77 rendered my bones gelatinous. While this only lasted for 48 hours, I was without internet access for several days due to my incarceration for assualting the biochemist/chef. Latke Q32 resulted in a haze. When that haze lifted, I found myself in the Everglades, wearing a red straw hat and carrying an autographed photo of Clint Eastwood. I made my way back to civilzation and discovered a month had passed. Latke X00 was delicious. It was so delicious that I put aside everything else and ate the whole batch. This took several days. I lay in a swollen yet blissful stupor for a day after that.
Science can be a harsh mistress, and the road to perfection is long and hard.
I wish you all happiness during whichever holiday or holidays is/are appropriate.