Why all the hostility toward looking nice?

In My Humble Opinion
301

It’s the people in the room that would value the clothes. “Dressing to the room” was, I believe, a take off of “playing to the room,” which means saying what your audience will enjoy or appreciate most.

You’re right, I don’t.

http://fashion.about.com/cs/glossary/a/partydefinition.htm
“However, when associated with a wedding or other special event, some form of decorum and good taste should prevail. A dress for her or a nice pair of slacks and shirt for him are informal, but respectful of the event.”

http://www.canoe.ca/LifewiseWorkEtiquette/eti_work6.html
“Am I dressed appropriately for my position and responsibilities? Do not wear sneakers, tank tops, tee shirts or revealing clothing to work if you hope to gain the respect of your clients, peers or higher ups.”

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Holidays/Christmas/HolidayParties.htm
"At the theatre, dressing well shows respect for the performers and your fellow audience. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,641-1584813,00.html
“It is polite to make an effort at dressing up for a formal dinner. It shows that you are taking it seriously.”

http://wiki-shorts.freestat.pl/11-1054-International_standard_business_attire.html
“However, when applying for work or attending business meetings, many men who do not otherwise wear suits will don them as a mark of respect and formality.”

http://www.csp.msu.edu/pages/qg/Dress_success_men.cfm
“Dressing professionally shows respect for yourself, the interviewer, and the company.”

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=75079
“I think the suit is the way to go, especially if everyone else wears casual attire. Not only will you stand out from the rest of the candidates but show respect for the interviewers.”

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Clothes%20Articles/ClothesDOMakeTheMan.htm
“Dressing badly can be taken as contempt for other people or the situation you are in. Clothing is a way to show others that you have respect and consideration for the situation. If you have respect for the theatre, you don’t show up in shorts and a T-shirt to a Broadway play.”

http://experts.about.com/q/1755/1027992.htm
“This is the real reason I dress up fairly nicely to see ballet—to show my respect and appreciation for the performers.”
Does this look to you like there’s no reason to think people find suits and formalwear respectful (in situations like job interviews, performances, or weddings and funerals)? Wearing a suit or formalwear is respectful if the person (or group) finds it respectful.

Sure, but there are different levels of earned respect. I respect my mother because she taught me how to be an independent adult, and because she had many difficult times in her life and always managed to do the right thing. I respect a symphony musician because he worked and practiced hard to get to be as good a musician as he is. These are two different situations, and the respect I feel for my mother is greater than the respect I feel for a symphony musician, but they are both respect.

Even a total stranger gets enough respect from me that I won’t shove him out of my way or cut in front of him in line.

Your appearance makes a statement. Wearing extremely casual clothing in a place where most people are wearing formal clothing is making the statement “I couldn’t be bothered to think about anyone else, I’m the only one who matters.” It sounds like this is a statement you intend to make, or at least do not mind making, but perhaps it shouldn’t be surprising when people find it rude.

302

Bottom line is whether you like it or not, how you dress is how you want the world to perceive you. If you dress like a mental patient, you may be comfortible, but the world will percieve you as someone who doesn’t care about their appearance. Don’t be upset when they treat you accordingly.

We have candidates who come in for interviews wearing ultra casual clothes. We send them home without question. It may seem stupid and you may be the most talented person in the world, but if you come to an interview without AT LEAST a shirt and tie and pants (suit is recommended), you are sending a message that you don’t care about anything but your own comfort.

I dress for the occassion. If I’m at work, I dress professionally because I want to be perceived as professional. When I go someplace nice, I dress nice because I want to be perceived as someone who cares about his appearance. When I go someplace casual, I dress casually because I don’t want to appear stuffy or uptight.

Some people might say “you shouldn’t care about what other people think”. You shouldn’t let it rule your life, but fact is people do judge you and make assumptions about you based on your appearance. Right or wrong, if you make a slob of yourself, you effectively take yourself out of the game.

DocCathode’s attitude is very much that of someone who is on the outside socially, either by choice or by his actions. It’s kind of like people who say “they should like me for who I am, not how I dress”. Well the only thing we know about who you are is what you chose to project to the world and you are projecting “I stole this out of a Salvation Army dumpster”.

Most of us understand that there are “rules” that we must follow, silly or not. Sure, sometimes it’s fun to flaunt the rules of society. My buddies and I used to show up at Asia de Cuba (an expensive NYC restaurant) wearing ripped jeans and a thermal-T. I don’t mind going out to a club in a T-shirt and jeans even if everyone else is dressed nice, provided they will let me in. But I still look like I thought about my outfit.

303

blink Let’s keep the arguement to what’s actually being said, OK? DocCathode’s position is radical enough as it is - no embelishment needed. He’s never once said that he wouldn’t dress up for work-related reasons. He also never said that he might not choose to dress up for the sake of someone who’s opinion he cares about - family, friend, or potential boss.

Most people care about the opinion of strangers. He doesn’t. I still don’t see why it’s a big deal, but I’m rather laissez-faire in general so maybe it’s just me.

304

I just skipped over several pages of replies so I apologize if someone already pointed this out…

I think the dressing up or dressing better refers something other than formal wear.

A shirt that fits, for male or female. In cold weather, a coat other than an oversized parka when you are going shopping or to a party or work…

I went many years not paying attention to how I looked except for going out or for ‘dress-up’ occasions…the rest of the time it was jeans and sneakers and over-sized t-shirts or sweaters. Yeah there was a self-image problem there.
I moved to a place where no one left the house unless they looked nice, not dressed up but put together well. To avoid standing out like a sore thumb I had to learn to dress the same and low and behold I discovered I looked slimmer and better when I wore clothes that fit.

Jeans can be ‘nice’ or cords. Dressing better is more about finding clothes that fit properly and don’t scream that you bought them during some fad or craze or like you just pulled them out of the dirty clothes basket.

305

Sorry if I didn’t read every line of a seven page thread about why someone should be ok with dressing like a slob. I’m speaking in generalities and only mention DocCathode at all because he seemed particularly vocal about it for the last few pages.

To answer your question about why you should care about how you look for strangers, the answer is you might actually meet someone who you might want to impress (or at least want them to take an interest in you).

306

He also never said that the opposite of dressing up was dirty wrinkled smelly clothing.

I wear pants that fit and are clean. I wear comfortable shirts that fit and are clean. No image problem at all. I have many friends and I meet people readily. i am not a hermit. I have a steady professional job. I don’t like dressing up and do so as little as possible. For men, dressing up means dress pants and dress shirt. If we are expanding the definition of dressing up to include new jeans that fit, then yes, I dress up occasionally, and I assume DocC does also. I mean, jeans are always new when I buy them. I don’t throw them in the compost for 3 months simply to avoid wearing new clothes!

307

Well, true, but I mean if you were going some place nice, but still casual enough for jeans.

308

But generally, how you dress is an expression of who you are.

In DC’s case, part of who he is is expressed by his clothing. “I don’t care what other people think”. Maybe that is a great idea, maybe it is not, but that’s the message being sent and that’s the message being received.

Regards,
Shodan

309

Why do you dress up to go to funerals and weddings? There’s nothing wrong with jeans and a tshirt, right? Isn’t that your argument?

Absolutely right!

I’m a huge David Attenborough fan. He does good stuff. Tonight it was about singing - how in the animal world, certain species - humpback whales, for example - choose their mates on how well or long or loudly the other one sings. He spent some time comparing the use of song in the animal world to the social implications of music in the human world, and mentioned how some of the most admired human singers attract scores of fans. He even mentioned how music affects fashions.

There’s an odd type of bird called the bower bird. They build extraordinarily elaborate nests. One doesn’t need be a genius to see the similarities between those birds and “he who dies with the most toys wins”.

He often does shows on birds, and explains how, for example, the peacock with the longest tail attracts the peahen. Or how the of one species attracts a mate because its colors are brighter, or it’s a little larger, or it can kick the other male’s ass in a fight.

It’s why you don’t wear plain old Hanes tshirts but instead spend money on shirts that are different colors with different words on them - you see some inherent worth in that method of display. I don’t know why. If I was happy wearing just tshirts I’d save the money and go for the plain old white ones.

So fight the good fight if you want, Doc, and go ahead and wear your jeans. That’s fine. You’re happy and comfortable and that’s just peachy. Just remember that millions of years of evolution tells us that it may be a good long time before you get to don that armor. Females of your species tend to prefer mates who wear things less drab than jeans and tshirts.

310

Young man says, you are what you eat.
Old man says, you are what you wear.

311

Because he is in the company of people whose feelings (if not opinions about dress) he cares about.

Human tastes are far more flexible and wide-ranging than those of the bower bird’s. Look at the changes in fashion in your life time. What human females want on a societal level changes constantly and quickly. What human females want on an individual basis varies widely. (I note that my wife finds me attractive and my appearance is not one that is going to meet the standards for widespread acceptance.)

Yes, perhaps by choosing a particular sartorial ensemble, DocC is limiting his choice of female companionship. But maybe that’s just fine with him. It doesn’t address the heart of his position, which is that he will not dress to please people whose opinion he doesn’t care about.

Exactly! DocC is not dressing like a homeless person or someone who’s mentall ill. He is just wearing jeans and a T-shirt.

And, he might not care to impress people who are going to judge him negatively because he’s wearing jeans and a T-shirt. And, anyway, not everyone he meets is going to do so. That seems to be just fine with him.

I think Risha’s statement here ought to be emphasized. Too many of the posts here seem to be arguing to the extremes. In my opinion DocC’s position is reasonably moderate.

And there are times – in DocC’s case, most of the time – when an individual is perfectly justified in not caring about how he is being perceived based on his dress.

In a hospital gown? In a straitjacket?

No, if you dress like a mental patient, people are going to think you’re a mental patient.

Has DocC once complained about how he has been treated when wearing a T-shirt and jeans?

You have a dress code and you enforce it. I should imagine if DocC wants a job with you, he’s going to follow the dress code. This says nothing about what he should wear when there is no explicit and enforced dress code.

And for the people who are citing etiquette manuals and labelling DocC rude and anti-social and other things for taking the position he has, I would like to remind them again that fashion changes and changes quickly. When you go to a fancy restaurant, why aren’t you dressed like this? Fashion changes and it changes fast and it changes when individuals decide they want to do violate current fashion.

There are always people in the “room” clucking their tongues at the people around them and there always will be. That’s no reason, in my view, to stop DocC from doing what he wants to do in situations when there’s no one forcing him to do otherwise.

The current trend, and it’s a good one in my view, is that people get to make their own decisions about what they want to wear and I look forward to seeing this standard take hold in all situations, whether it’s the workplace or the symphony or a meeting with the president.

312

Of course, in the sartorial version of Gaudere’s Law, this weekend my wife and I checked into a hotel downtown and made some reservations at a nice restaurant. If course, in the course of dressing up, I realized I had forgotten to pack any shoes other than the black Adidas I was wearing. :smack:

Of course, I drove home and got some dress shoes, but not without some comtemplation of how the sneakers would look with my dress pants. So I definitely understand the compulsion to just dress in whatever. At the same time, I was distinctly aware that the concern I had about going out underdressed wasn’t about ehat other people would think of me, it was about how I would think about myself. I would be disturbed because I would feel that I wasn’t making the effort to respect the experience and my fellow diners.

Anyway, I don’t think I’m getting DocCathode’s explanation still. He’s saying that jeans and t-shirts are fine for all occasions. Except for those when he wants to show respect, like a work situation or for friends’ special events. But then he says that not wearing nice clothes is not a sign of disrespect. So, I’m confused. If he just said, “Yeah, I wear t-shirts to the Four Seasons. Too bad! No stranger deserves my respect!” it would make more sense to me. :confused:

313

I think it’s pretty commonsensical to wear whatever’s appropriate to the situation at hand. Fortunately for me, most of the situations I find myself in are of a more casual nature. Weddings, job interviews, funerals, and the like get the nice slacks, shirt and tie treatment. (I don’t own a suit, and don’t feel a need or desire to have one.)

As for the workplace, it’s on a university campus and is associated with IT support. I dress neatly and cleanly, but pretty casually, just as my co-workers do. Sometimes we have to move computer equipment or crawl around under desks. Jeans or khakis are perfectly suited to that type of work, as are athletic-style shoes. If I was in sales or had to meet with clients, then I would dress much as I do for the abovestated more formal events.

To me, wearing clean clothes and being appropriately groomed is more important than a certain style of dress. There’s been times in my life when I simply couldn’t afford fancier clothes.

If I miss out professionally or socially for wearing (clean) jeans and a tshirt with a pair of converse hightops and a baseball cap during my time away from work, then I can live with that.

I don’t necessarily think such judgements are always, or even often, accurate, but they and other snap judgements made with limited information are ubiquitous, and I don’t have a problem with it. It’s when a snap-judgement made on appearance is adhered to even when more information which contradicts the original judgement becomes available that it becomes a troubling issue.

314

Well, DocCathode, I think we’re just going to have to acknowledge that we’re never going to agree, and I think by this point it’s obvious that you’re never going to see my point. You don’t seem to grok this concept of “politeness.”

Your philosophy seems to be, “If you ain’t my family or friends, then I don’t care about you,” e.g. “You find my t-shirt objectionable at your fancy restaurant? Well screw you.”

My philosophy is, “Treat others the way you’d like them to treat you,” e.g., “I wouldn’t want the maitre d’ at the fancy restaurant to wear a thong to my bookstore, so I won’t wear a t-shirt to his restaurant.”

315

But “politeness” is neither an obvious nor an indispensible part of this equation. Politeness is a factor at a wedding or a funeral. However, when it comes to a commercial operation, politeness in terms of dress doesn’t enter into it. It’s very simple. Many restaurants have a dress code because it is critical to their market niche. To those restaurants, dress is definitely not a matter of politeness. It’s a matter of their profit. If they want to preserve that market niche, it is imperative for them to enforce that dress code. If they make the choice to start letting people in who don’t meet the dress code, then they have made a commercial decision – they would rather have an underdressed paying customer than preserve their market niche. It’s all a matter of commercial interest. Politeness doesn’t enter into it.

316

I have to completely disagree. When I go to a restaurant I try to be polite to the other diners. I don’t have conversations about harvesting organs in a loud voice (ok, we did once, it was really rude and when we discovered people staring at us, we stopped). I don’t eat with my fingers, even if I’m alone. Or fidget my way through dinner. I don’t get this “I only need to be polite to people I know” vibe I’m getting from this thread.

317

What you’re missing, and what you missed about my post just now is that DocC and I do not see dress as an essential part of politeness. To me, politeness is in the way you interact with someone. The way I dress is part of my persona and is not part of what I consider part of politeness.

Indeed, to me, your having expectations about the way I dress is a violation of what I consider politeness. If you aren’t my boss or my client or my mom, you have no business having an opinion of my dress. The very fact that you think I ought to dress in order to please you, a stranger, is to me an affront. If I have no business with you, no relationship with you, and want nothing from you, then I really don’t care what you think about my sartorial choices. If you choose to take that as rudeness on my part, then that tells me that you are not the kind of person I’m interested in.

318

Then why is dress part of politeness at a wedding or a funeral?

319

I hope you’ll excuse me for being a little frustrated here, but I feel like I’m repeating myself.

The people at a wedding or funeral that DocC is going to are his friends and relatives. They have invited him to the ocasion and they want him to dress a certain way. He has a relationship with them. They are not strangers. It is a private, ceremonial function. It is not a commercial transaction at a public place. His family and friends want him and they would be upset if he, himself didn’t turn up.

A dinner in a restaurant is primarily a private, commercial transaction at a public place. It is not personal. If the restaurant lets him in it’s because they want his money. It doesn’t matter to anyone whether he ever shows up there or not.
DocC has no relationship with the other diners. If the restaurant really wanted to maintain a dress code, they would tell DocC and not let him in until he complied.

Do you see the differences in the situations here?

320

No, sorry, I don’t. What you are saying is there is no reason to be polite to strangers or meet the expectation of strangers or treat strangers with respect, but there is reason to treat people you know with respect. I don’t understand the difference. To me, strangers in a restaurant are as personal as relatives and friends for the purposes of politeness - perhaps more so. I can gauge the reactions of friends and relatives and know how important the occation is to them. I have no inside knowledge about strangers.