There’s just no way we’re going to be able to explain to you and DocCathode why we believe in showing politeness and respect for people that aren’t your friends and family, is there?
I guess I’ll just keep on dressing appropriately for the occasion, and you and Doc will keep on doing what you do.
You don’t understand that someone wants to treat close personal acquaintances differently than complete strangers? Seriously? I can see not agreeing with this philosophy, but claiming not to understand it?
The problem with trying to “behave right” to be polite to strangers is that you really have no idea what the strangers think is right! What if the crowd that night happens to be full of strict Muslims? Should I quick throw a veil over my wife? What if the crowd is militant nudists? Should I strip down so as not to offend them by my clothedness? You say “Oh, but in a restaurant, the staff will not let nudists in, everyone knows the type of dress expected in a restaurant.” Which proves DocCathode’s point that if he is really dressed wrong, it is up to the staff to not seat him.
But I DO have some idea of what is proper, that is what ettiquette is for. It says “wear nice clothes to a nice restaurant.” Its says “wear nice clothes to a performance (unless its in a park).” In Europe it means cover your head when touring a church, in a Muslim country it means covering your legs and arms as a woman in public (and sometimes, I believe, your head as well). It does change over time - old fashioned me still won’t wear black or red to a wedding, but I understand that is simply old fashioned of me and I don’t take offense when others do so. But last I checked, wearing jeans and a tshirt to a five star restaurant was still gauche.
And yes, I get treating friends differently, but what I don’t get is why strangers deserve less common politeness and courtesy than your friends - which is what I consider dressing for the occation to be.
“Polite” is not a synonym for “pretentious”.
Yes, of course. The ability to use the language correctly is in general part of polite society, required of those who are able to associate with others in higher social settings.
What other explanations for most social behaviors are there aside from “those are the rules” or “because?” You may as well ask why it’s rude for two people to whisper with one another in front of another coworker, why it’s socially unacceptable to belch loudly after a fine meal in a restaurant, or why some people get pissed off at the prospect of someone digging up a corpse that was buried 2,000 years ago. Given that the correct modes of social behavior can vary greatly from group to group there’s no objective definition to be had.
If you come from a structural/functional perspective you’d agree that customs help bring us together as a people. We all recognize that the symphony is a formal occasion and as such we wear the proper costume. Or, I suppose you could take the Marxist approach and simply state that the costumes are a way differentiate the classes and contribute to the general strife and conflict of any class based society.
So I guess to answer your question, it is expected that you show up in formal attire because those are the rules. Intentional violation of social mores is generally thought of as anti-social behavior.
Marc
I think that perhaps we have different views on the supposed negative aspects of being anti-social.
I see intentional violation of social mores (that do not involve any harm or loss to another) as a protest and a push towards change. I see that as a good thing. At one time it was considerd bad manners for a man to not wear a hat in public. Some “poor mannered” men started going bareheaded, and now i am free from the restriction of wearing a hat. Some “trampy” women started wearing pants, and my wife and daughers can now wear jeans in public without being accused of being harlots.
I fully agree that costumes ARE a way differentiate the classes and continue a class based society. I have no problem with working to tear this down.
I’m kinda torn here. I think this issue is a very regional thing.
I live in a resort community/ranch community. You can go in jeans just about anywhere.
Last time I saw someone in a suit was when I was on jury duty 7 months ago. Yep, 7 months. Since I can remember seeing any one in a suit.
There are about 27,000 full time residents in this county. During Christmas holidays, that can triple due to skiers.
I think there may be 3 restaurants that you wouldn’t look out of place in a jacket in tie. It’s the reverse here. Clean jeans and a nice sweater would surely be the norm. Dinner for two is gonna run you about 140-250 dollars in these fancy spots.
No one would think twice about wearing a tee shirt to 99 percent of the restaurants here. 'Cept they might be a bit cold.
Where are you folks eating that people dress up? One poster said “anywhere with a bar”. That just floored me.
Like I said. It must be a very region thing.
:: plants roots deeper ::
It IS a very regional thing. Around here we don’t wear formal wear to the symphony, but we still “dress up” for the most part - that means few people wear jeans. For theatre it depends on the theatre, the age of the patrons, and the time of the performance. Grey haired ladies on a Sunday afternoon wear church clothes at the Guthrie or the Ordway, students wear jeans, but on Friday night, jeans even on the students are a definate minority. Go to the Jungle Theatre, and funky casual is more the order of the day. But there doesn’t seem to me to be any reason to “rush to the bottom” of dress, since there are plenty of dressier clothes that are fine for events around here that aren’t restrictive or uncomfortable.
Note that even Disney World - resort capital of the world where people wear Mickey Mouse t-shirts everywhere, requests business casual dress for its better restaurants. They will still seat you wearing a Mickey Mouse t-shirt and shorts, but they have requested business casual at a minimum - and they won’t seat you in a wife beater and cutoffs. Most nicer restaurants around here do something similar. They don’t have a published dress code, but if asked will request business casual (i.e. khakis or better, collared shirts) and will not seat you (or alternatively seat you in the bar) if you haven’t made an effort to look neat. Course, this started with a discussion of the Disney Cruise Line, which has a formal night and requests no shorts in their dining rooms (though about a year ago they started saying jeans were OK). Disney is a strange place - yes there is the family on vacation with a three year old and a five year old. But there is the couple on their Honeymoon out for their special honeymoon dinner, the guy trying to close a three million dollar sale at Lotussphere, and the golf foursome that thinks nothing about the $100 rounds of golf they will spend four days playing.
As to the change in social mores being a good thing - a place like a four or five star restaurant is somewhere you don’t need to go. There IS an element of class to these events which makes the event more enjoyable for all the participants. I don’t wear Donna Karen wool slacks and a silk shirt to a triple A baseball game, and I don’t wear jeans and a concert t to the Chamber Orchestra.
Yes, there is an element of “class” to those things. You say it like it is a good thing, but to me, it is a bad thing. “Class” means that certain elements of society are not wanted. No one at the Triple A baseball game would care at all if you wore a silk shirt.
Changing social mores will mean that eventually no one at the 5 star restaurant will care what I am wearing (given the previously mentioned conditions that we are not talking dirty, smelly clothes), just as no one will care now if you wear Donna Karen slacks to a 5 star restaurant. But your great-grandmother wearing slacks to a fancy restaurant? She’d have been booted out. In times of change, the conservative people of the time feel put upon and outraged. But times still change.
Really, no one? You’ve canvassed all the attendees to discover no one would care. Cause I have gone to AAA baseball and I would have cared. You dress appropriately for the event. If its a monster truck rally or a nude beach or a black tie dinner.
Obviously what I meant was “In my personal experience I have never run across someone who would have cared if there was a woman in Donna Karen slacks and a silk blouse.”
I disagree with your insistence on “classy” dress at other places, but I do understand it. Caring if someone was overdressed at a triple A baseball game I just don’t understand.
Because I don’t want the dress of either place to change. I want to be comfortable dressed at a baseball game in a tshirt and shorts. If the standards of dress change so that silk blouses and wool pants are what “everyone” wears, I will need to wear that to be comfortable - and I wouldn’t ever really be comfortable at a ballgame dressed like that. Likewise, I enjoy dressing up for dinner at a fancy restaurant, if the standards dip to “everyone” wearing jeans, I won’t ever have a place to wear a stunning little black dress and heels. To me it isn’t a shame that the standards have slipped to wearing evening dress to the symphony isn’t done anymore - I was never part of that era and symphony dress really hasn’t changed much in the 20 years I’ve been an occational (now very occational) attendee of symphony performance. Benefit balls, formal nights on a cruise and prom seem adequate to me for dressing up.
Would those that like to dress up, feel put out, by those that cannot?
How about a fancy restaurant with no dress code. A man and Wife want to try it yet the man cannot afford a suit. He wears the very best clothes he has.
Are you put out? Does it ruin your dinner? Are you not glad that the couple wants to try the restaurant?
Or do you feel that they don’t belong.
………
You CANNOT differentiate between them and Doc. Yet it has been said that this ruins your dinning experience.
That’s pretty sad. I don’t let other peoples simple day to day choices ruin my day.
That’s the part of this whole thread that bothers me. I will dress to the occasion. For whatever reason. Don’t care. Doesn’t matter.
But to say that YOUR dinning experience is upset because OTHERS don’t live up to YOUR expectations is just sad.
A story.
My Wife and I had the very, very worst New Years Dinner at a Hotel down in town about 5 years ago. It was silly. We had reservations, for a 4 course meal at 8pm. We ended up with 3 ‘courses’ of (Cambells) soup and a sandwich in the bar (the restaurant was closed) to complete our 4 course meal. I don’t know who took the reservation, but I guess we where the only ones that took them up on it. Still makes me chuckle.
We are going back tonight. New Years Dinner Again.
We are tenacious, if not always smart. Gonna give them another shot.
It may be worth a good story. I’m going in jeans and a nice shirt. I may put a nice belt on.
Everyone, have a safe New Year.
Enipla
Much better this time. At least my wifes Salmon was very good. My steak, mehhh. How do you screw up a rib eye anyway? And their computers where down so service was a bit off. Oh well.
It was fun, we got serenaded by a rather strange combo. Guitar and whistler. Yep, the guy was an absolute great whistler. Mandolin bringing up spot number two. And finnaly. A base. A full 6’ base.
I love living up here. Somtimes it’s just so … quirky.
I’m wondering what a guy who can’t afford a sportcoat and tie from the consignment store and Dockers (which cost as much as jeans) is doing at a restaurant where the meal costs $100+ per person. I’m not talking about TGIFridays here. I’m talking four and five star restaurants, charity dinners, opening night symphony performances and $75 a ticket shows.
It’s not that he can’t afford it – it’s that he refuses to wear it on abstract principle. As I said earlier re Doc, he’d be better off wearing his tails-of-many-colors. At least he’d give people a smile.
Honestly someone who doesn’t wear the proper attire to a function isn’t going to ruin the experience for me. I might think, “I can’t believe he wore that,” but that’s going to be about the extent of my thoughts. That might apply to grooming as well I suppose. Those who attended my wedding still make fun of the JP because the terrible rug he wore on his head was so memorable.
Marc
It wouldn’t ruin the evening for me either, but I do think its rude and inconsiderate. I really try not to let rude people ruin occations for me - it comes from spending my life with my grandmother. And I do know people who it DOES ruin the evening for. In addition to thinking the people who aren’t dressing up are rude, I think the people who let it ruin their night need to get some perspective.
That’s a very good point. Yet again, I’ll mention thrift shops, second-hand stores, etc. You just have to look.