No, it’s not going to ruin my dinner if someone else isn’t dressed the same way I am. My problem with Doc isn’t so much the t-shirt itself as the attitude behind it. I’ve eaten in the nicest restaurant in town here when a big group came in wearing matching boy scout camp t-shirts and clean jeans. That was fine with me. They were camping and probably didn’t have any “upscale” clothes with them.
On the other hand, a guy walked into the bar at that restaurant wearing badly torn jeans, a spiked dog collar, and a t-shirt that said “if you can read this, f*** you” (without the asterisks). Yeah. That bothered me.
I love going out - particularly for a nice meal for example, and for me, a great part of the evening is the dressing up part. So personally speaking, I would ALWAYS dress up for a dinner date for example.
However, I have also had ocasion to have to call ahead to a restaurant explaining that a show had overrun and as a result we wouldnt have the chance to call back to the hotel to change - and was that okay? It meant that we were at a 5 star restaurant in clothes which were smart and clean-ish, but NOT dressed up (partner had no tie on for example). The restaurant were very good about the whole thing and we had a lovely evening, HOWEVER, if we had been out treking that day and were in for exapmple, walking shoes, jeans, sloppy jumpers and sporting a rucksack each - no, I wouldnt have considered it appropriate and wouldnt have EXPECTED to go, let alone checked with the restaurant!
So - yes, IMHO? I think you SHOULD dress up when you go out - after all - why not? I certainly take it as a compliment when MY date dresses up! mind you - I DO so like a man in a suit! mmmm…
I believe that someone did mention something to that effect earlier, using a ‘man as peacock’ analogy. For what it’s worth, I agree with that assessment.
However, many of those that eschew efforts at ‘dressing up’ are also the ones that want someone to love them for ‘what’s inside.’ Like I said earlier, it doesn’t hurt me in any way (though it’s mildly annoying at times to have someone upset the ‘moo’ of an event), and if it’s a successful dating/mating/life strategy, more power to them.
Of course not. And I say that as someone that met and fell in love with his Lady online, almost sight unseen- the only pictures we’d exchanged were years old, and that was well into it.
That said, saying that appearances don’t matter (especially where mating is concerned) at all is antithetical to everything we know about humans, or any other animals, for that matter. I doubt that my wife and I would be together if we didn’t make an effort for each other. How you present yourself on the outside is a reflection of your internal values.
I just think that the ‘love me for who I am’ or ‘what’s in the inside’ is quite often code for ‘I don’t feel like making an effort.’ Same thing goes with more casual social interactions- if you don’t want to make the effort to present your best face to strangers, no big deal. But it does help them form an opinion of you, especially when you are in a situation that traditionally calls for it (i.e. you make an effort stand apart). In everything you do, you send a message to those around you. That’s just a fact of life. No one is telling you what you must do- but if you go against tradition and social mores, don’t be surprised if it doesn’t always work in your favor. If you’re happy with that situation, it’s no big deal to me.
Its been my experience, knowing quite a few people who fit the “I don’t care and people should admire what’s inside” mold, that a few of them really don’t care. And some of them confuse what should be (i.e. looks shouldn’t matter) with what is (looks do matter, at least in establishing first impressions in a visual form). They spend energy either vaguely angry or vaguely confused about why Bob got promoted when they are smarter and a harder worker (because Bob makes an effort to be personable and is well liked, while you are the weird smart guy) or why Sarah ended up dating Dan (because Dan makes an effort to look groomed each day, while the women they know get together and speculate on how often they change there underwear (not kidding, I’ve had those conversations)).
The first have chosen, and accept the consequences. The second I shake my head over.
If a restaurant is no longer enforcing these rules, then it is an indication that the common notion of what is proper is changing.
If the patrons are no longer uniformly following these rules, then it is an indication that the common notion of what is proper is changing.
What is considered proper public behaviour in a society to which I do not belong is a different issue. In my country, I have the right to decide whether I want to be on the vanguard of relaxing the rules.
And whom did you check with? There is no authoritative source where you can check. The only real reference is whether more and more peopel are trying to get into five-star restaurants in jeans and T-shirts and whether they are being admitted. That’s how social change happens. It happens gradually.
No matter what you’re doing someone will consider you gauche. In fact, the word gauche itself tells you that at one time it was socially unacceptable to be left-handed. Things change and they change piecemeal, not all at once, and not with everyone’s agreement.
And I consider it an extreme impertinence for a stranger to place on me the burden of maintaining his or her mood by the way I dress. For me, dress is a personal issue and I don’t accept that a stranger can impose his or her idea of what is proper on me. Get a monkey, then you can dress him to your pleasure. I am not your monkey. I will not dress to please you, a stranger.
Enough theory! I am going to New York this week for a series of dinners and parties. I’m meeting several friends there and we’ll each bring a suit for each day plus at least 3 tuxedoes each. We’ve spoken about this thread and we have agreed that if we see anyone in jeans and a t-shirt at our fancy bistros and theatres we will promptly beat them up.
William Norwich’s article about hats in The New York Times this weekend raised a point worth considering:
So maybe the JAATS crowd is simply living in the wrong part of the world. Although I suspect a lot of those Ts, jeans and sneaks are black, grey, or unadorned by cartoon visuals.
If you don’t accept Ms Manners as an authority, no big deal. I think what many of us object to is the ‘coarsening’ of society- where people seem to exist in their own little bubbles without regard for anyone else’s sensibilities.
Frankly, in my experience, people that dress inappropriately seldom do so out of any sort of social protest- they do it because they either don’t know better or don’t care enough to make the effort. The former can be helped (and I devote a lot of time to helping them…it’s usually very well received)…the latter are the sort of people that piss me off.
The same goes for people that refuse to be on time, for people that refuse basic hygiene, for people that are totally unaware of the space they occupy, and any number of other anti-social tendencies that we discuss on this board regularly. And you know what? I’ve noticed a huge overlap in a lot of these behaviors…usually coupled with a healthy serving of ‘why don’t people like me?’ or ‘I’m tired of being alone,’ or, better yet, ‘why can’t people just accept me for who I am?’
And, at the very end of this, I still don’t desire any sort of ‘fashion police’ or official sanctioning of people that just don’t care enough to put in any effort into life beyond grubbing around in the dirt- I simply ask for the freedom to think less of them.
