This thread has me torn . . . Torn, like an old pair of nylons! On the one hand, I know DocCathode is a prince of a guy . . . But on the other, he is David Addison to my Maddie Hayes, Wallace Beery to my Margaret Dumont!
Now see, DocCathode, I always pictured you as the sort who would wear pin-striped 1920s style gangster flannel suits and fedoras for kicks.
Why shower? Personally, I find my own body odor rather pleasant and showers rather drying to my skin…but I understand that people around me are less enamoured of my own stink. So I shower. Likewise, I take some pains to groom myself - partly for myself, partly for the benefit of others who seem to enjoy looking at me when my hair is combed.
Dressing is like that. Its perfectly acceptable for me to lay around in my jammies, unshowered on a Saturday. If I’m going to do yard work, I’ll often put off the shower til I’m finished. So no shower and jammies or ratty clothes - acceptable for a Saturday around the house. If I’m going to run to the grocery store, I’ll put on something less ratty and probably shower. If I’m going to go to work, its at least jeans (I have a casual work environment) and of course a shower. If I’m giving a presentation to my VP, its dressy slacks, a nice top, a shower and makeup. If I’m going to dinner with my husband at a nice place, its shower, a little more makeup, hair done, nails done, a dress and nylons. If I’m going to a formal event, the dress reaches the floor. The dress with full makeup would be no more appropriate for yard work as the jammies and no shower would be at a formal dinner on a cruise.
:smack: :smack: I left out “romantic gestures”. Although I suppose that fall under "important events in the lives of people I care about.
I own a suit of techno-armor made from recycled junk-chest plate (cuirass), arm covers (bracers), and leg armor (greaves). In order to announce my love to the right woman, or as a gift, I am willing and eager to don the armor (it takes fifteen minutes if people help me), grab my lance, borrow a horse and sing Dulcinaya to her window. Hopefully, she would respond with the proper line and hurl a dish rag at me. I would retrieve it, proclaim it gossamer and find a key inside.
The armor is uncomfortable in the extreme. But, I am not required to wear it by some ridiculous rule which exists for no apparent reason.
Guinastasia
I do like the double breasted look. I will be making a fedora to match my hooded cloak as soon as I find matching fabric. I know they still make wool with a Glenn plaid pattern and just have to find the right colors.
I’m considering making a monk’s habit. Besides the obvious uses, I could visit the local market and stock up on Rasputin-themed products.
Puh-lease!
Oh! I see . . . You meant . . . Never mind!
I think there is a huge amount of truth here. The SDMB community has a high percentage of computer geeks who may feel the same.
[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
Why shower? Personally, I find my own body odor rather pleasant and showers rather drying to my skin…but I understand that people around me are less enamoured of my own stink.
[QUOTE]
I find that the smell of long unwashed man is near-universally regarded as unpleasant. This isn’t a learned response, but seems to me to be innate.
No, it isn’t. I know of no innate human reaction to gowns, tuxes, or poly blend t-shirts. Body odor is an innate human response. Aesthetics are a learned behavior taught by society.
(Where did I advocate not showering?)
You’ve just stated your opinion as fact. You haven’t bothered to explain your reasoning. Why is it inappropriate? If the jammies in question meet indecent exposure and other legal requirements, I don’t have a problem with it.
A dress with full makeup is not inappropriate for yardwork, simply impractical. If you want to garden in a ball gown, make up, and a diamond studded tiara, be my guest.
I don’t feel like an argument tonight so this is just a drive-by comment (though for the record, I’m not bothered if someone is wearing a tutu to meet the President, as long as they are clean and the important bits are covered).
Some people are claiming that it is cheap and easy to dress up if you just frequent discount and thrift stores. I suspect that those people are of reasonably average dimensions. As someone who is both significantly taller and wider than a typical American woman, I am limited to very specific stores to shop in, most of which I (though probably not Martin Hyde) would consider on the expensive end of the scale. No thrift store I have ever been in has carried anything close to my size in anything other than men’s clothes. Yes, I’ve looked. When you take into account my height, neither does J.C. Penney, Macy’s, Wal-Mart, Land’s End, K-Mart, Gap, Marshall’s, Lord and Taylor, Bloomingdale’s, L.L. Bean, Old Navy, Abercrombie and Fitch, Aeropostal, Kohl’s, Fashion Bug, Sears, Talbot’s…
I’m quite puzzled by this. Why does it scream “I give up” to you? Can’t it scream (instead) that “I’m busy cleaning and chasing kids and grocery shopping so I’m wearing the thing that’s most comfy to me thru all those changes”? When I see another gal at the Wally World or grocery store in this outfit, I don’t think she “gave up”. I think she got smart. 
P.S. DocCathode you are now My Personal Hero[sup]TM[/sup].
You didn’t advocate not showering, I did. And it doesn’t make any difference if the response is learned or innate (or at least, it doesn’t to me). It may to you. I also have a different connotation of inappropriate, as I would find gardening in a ballgown inappropriate. We will have to agree to disagree. However, while you don’t have a problem with me showing up in my jammies to a formal dinner, I would have a problem with you doing the same, and I will speak to the maitre d’ about enforcing a dress code.
Yes, the other diners and the staff. Again, you can have a terrific meal in your kitchen, and not have to worry about what everyone else thinks, or wants you to do. Screw them, it’s your kitchen That’s fine.
Going out is a social experience. You are there as part of the room, and, as Bordelond said, you are part of the decór. In my favorite restaurant, a little sit-down place around the corner from my house, that means wearing something that is clean and free of holes, and not overtly offensive. I could eat there 7 days a week, if I had the money, and you’d be more than welcome in what you’re wearing (assuming you found some proper footwear). Other places are decorated differently. If you want to go there, you go along with the scheme. If you don’t, you go somewhere else. It’s not about whether your t-shirt stinks (I’m sure I never made that argument), it’s the fact that it’s a t-shirt.
It’s kind of like going to a halloween party dressed as yourself. You can, but don’t expect anyone to be too impressed.
Indeed it does. An inborn response based on millions of years of evolution carries a lot more weight than an arbitrary rule which must be taught.
First you say that it is inappropriate and don’t explain why. Now you say you demand strict enforcement of a rule you cannot explain or defend.
And how exactly does my jeans and a t-shirt effect the other diners? Why am I dressed for the staff? I don’t make unreasonable demands on the staff. I do not vent my anger of frustrations on them. I say please and thank you. Where does dress enter into it.
[QUOTE[Again, you can have a terrific meal in your kitchen, and not have to worry about what everyone else thinks, or wants you to do.[/QUOTE]
I can have a terrific meal in any place that will admit me in jeans and a t-shirt and not have to worry what everyone else thinks or wants me to do.
How and why exactly is wearing jeans and a t-shirt equivalent to saying “Screw them.”?
No, I am not. Even if I was, you still have not explained how jeans and a t-shirt is not an appropriate part of the decor.
Why? What is the reason behind this rule?
And why is the fact that it’s a t-shirt a bad thing?
No, it isn’t and you’re about to explain why.
But, according to you, I can’t just wear what I want to a five star restaraunt and expect no greater consequence than not expecting anyone to be too impressed. According to you, the proper consequence is that I will be denied admission.
I’m the one arguing that it is just like attending a Halloween party dressed as myself. I can do it. There is no reason I should be prevented from doing so or face a consequence other than that people will not be impressed with my outfit.
DocCarthode-
you really seem to be having a hard time with the concept of ‘fitting in.’ Social interaction is largely based on this premise- presenting as few distractions as possible so that communication can happen. At fancy restaurants, diners are not simply paying for the food -they are paying for the experience. By not even making a good faith attempt to conform to the vision of a fancy dinner, or a night out at the opera, what have you, you are ‘bursting their bubble’, ‘harshing their buzz,’ etc.- you are taking everyone out of the fantasy they are creating by intruding with your mundane self. As of yet, your only justification seems to boil down to 1) I don’t care about others’ opinions and 2) I’ll do what I want and you can’t stop me. It’s your right to hold these views, but can’t you see how it might rub some folks the wrong way?
And yes, if a restaurant’s major selling point is the experience they offer in addition to the food, then they should push for a dress code. I had always figured that the ‘experience’ of theatre, opera, or other high art was *understood * due to centuries of tradition.
I spend my Saturday and Sunday mornings and afternoons doing pretty much the same activities you described. When I leave the house to go to the grocery store, Target/Wal*Mart and Sam’s Club, I don’t consider it a huge effort to change out of what I wore when I was chasing after the kids and cleaning and into a clean pair of jeans/cords, presentable sneakers and a nice t-shirt or casual sweater. And I have a lot of kids, too.
I guess that’s where you and I depart. When I see a gal in such a get-up, I think many things and not one them has to do with her intelligence.
There are degrees to this line of thinking, I’m sure. While I’m out shopping on the weekends, I often notice Them. Who are They, you ask? They are the women who are wearing tapered leg jeans or chinos with cutesy socks and loafers. They’re usually wearing a blouse–tucked in, mind you–or a seasonal or holiday-themed sweater. They have on make-up (not as much as if they were going out to dinner, but it’s obvious they spent some time putting on their faces before they left the house) and their hair is shellaced so much that neither strong winds nor the hand of god could move their 'do. I’m sure to Them, I’m a bum. Here I am in no make-up, save for a bit of lip gloss, my hair, well, it looks great, but there’s no hairspray in it, that’s for sure. I’m wearing jeans that are either straight leg or boot cut and non-Keds sneakers (usally Puma, Adidas, Michele K, Polo, etc.–very mod, very urban looking) and a t-shirt or plain sweater. I’m sure they look down their noses at me while thinking to themselves I probably don’t know any better.
I’m not going to change how I dress because of it, though, and neither should anyone else. I’m fully aware of what message my choice of clothing sends–intentional or not–and I hope you are, too.
[hijack]***** Gold stars for everyone. Four pages into a thread with a solid theme about discrimination and prejudice and NOBODY has made any patronizing analogies or hypotheticals involving our favorite “example race”. Very good, people.[/hijack]
How exactly are my jeans and a t-shirt “distractions”?
So, again you say ‘Do this because the rules say so’. Why do the rules say so?
I can guarantee you that no matter what I wear, mundane is not a word people use to describe me.
How am I ‘bursting their bubble’ and ‘harshing their buzz’? How exactly does my wearing jeans and a t-shirt do that?
I never said “I don’t care about others opinions”. I said that I do not care what strangers think of me. This an order of magnitude different than disregarding any opinion held by anybody who is not me.
I don’t recall saying #2. I did say I will wear jeans and a t-shirt to any place that will admit me, but that isn’t quite the same thing.
Yes, but that falls under #1 above.
I disagree. Any restaraurant which cannot create a memorable experience without requiring a dress code is not doing its job. Le Bec Fin, for example, brings some of the soup courses with mother of pearl spoons. Eating with a mother of pearl spoon is an experience regardless of what you or anybody else is wearing. (In fact, diners<Who are conforming to the dress code> try to steal the spoons frequently enough that Le Bec Fin has the policy of saying nothing, but adding a service charge of $50 per spoon to the bill. If the diners ignore the charge, but return the spoons with the bill, the charge disappears and nothing is said.)
You do know that Shakespeare’s troop performed while merchants sold rotten food to the audience so they could express their displeasure and prostitutes worked in the crowd?
Tradition? You’ll have to do better than that. Why did the tradition come about in the first place? Why, other than cultural inertia, should the tradition continued to be followed?
The fine tradition of opening the door for a lady comes from the fine belief that all women are delicate and weak.
The Philadelphia Museum Of Art has no dress code. I can go and stand inches from Van Gogh masterpieces in my jeans and a t-shirt.
Why is the theater or the symphony different?
Actually, according to me, there is difference between what you can do and what you ought to do. You are confusing me with someone else. A restaurant determines what sort of experience they provide. They rely on the patrons to participate in it, in order to make it work. It is a different kind of transaction than buying widgets.
I guess my question to you is, why do you eat out? I mean at a nice restaurant, not McDonald’s or CSI: Fridays. It is possible in even medium-small metro areas to have a gourmet meal delivered to your home. Why do you need to eat among other people, anyway?
:blink: Ironed jeans? One of the very reasons I wear jeans is that there is no need to iron them. Out of the dryer, to a hanger, or folded, and they aren’t wrinkled. At least mine aren’t.
One of the reason I hated having to wear fancy cloths to work was that I had to spend an hour or two on sunday ironing the stuff. Total waste of time when I should have just been able to wear jeans instead (I had no interaction with clients, I supervised 4 data entry folks). Maybe that’s why I have a bit of disdane for dressing up.
First, I disagree that the rule is arbitrary. It has to do - like most rules of ettiquette, with respecting fellow human beings. And that is my problem. When I go to a nice dress up type restaurant I am going for the whole experience. The food should be wonderful. The service impeccible, the decor beautiful, and the other patrons should look spiffy. When you choose not to look spiffy, you are disrespecting the other diners in the room. You are saying “I don’t value you enough to conform to what is expected of me by society.”
If you find this societal rule arbitary, then most of them probably are. We don’t need to use silverware - hands work fine except when slurping out of a bowl or cup. Entire cultures haven’t bothered to invent toilet paper (hands work fine - apparently). No need to say Please or Thank You - they are fairly useless words - the world would be so much more efficient without them. Most of life’s ceremonies are arbitary and unnecessarily - who needs a wedding or a funeral?