Why are Americans so patriotic?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Stoneburg

The whole question is really in the title but just to flesh it out…

In my experience Americans are WAY more patriotic than the other people (mainly Euros and Australians) that I hang out with. They also (as a result of this?) seem to take everything about their country very personally, so that if the US is criticized it is taken as a personal offense. Why is that?

We might have had a slightly higher level of background patriotism than other countries but not overly so… until 9/11. Then anything less than rah rah shish boom bah levels of patriotism was borderline treasonous.

It used to be that every politician used to punctuate their sentences with thanking God. Now they punctuate their sentences with thanking God and the “troops” AFAICT it was a reaction to how shitty we treated our returning soldiers after the Vietnam war.

If anyone ever mentions that they are a veteran, there is an obligatory chorus of “thank you for your service” from anyone within earshot. Once again there is some collective guilt over how we treated the returning Vietnam veterans.

But now there seems to be an arms race of patriotism between various political factions. I can’t wait until we go back to the realization that just because we are the best country in the world blessed by God over all others, we don’t have to rub everyone else’s nose in it.

[Tom_Tildrum]

@Little_Nemo

I think a factor is that Americans are defined primarily by their nationality. We don’t have the same kind of cultural identity that somebody who’s English or Russian or Chinese or Egyptian has. We’re a mix of various cultures that’s united by our common nationality.

That’s the explanation I’ve always heard. Whereas many other nations are bound together by ethnic identity, the US instead developed an ideological identity. We refresh it quite publicly because it’s not something inborn.

[What_Exit]

@Damuri_Ajashi

We might have had a slightly higher level of background patriotism than other countries but not overly so… until 9/11. Then anything less than rah rah shish boom bah levels of patriotism was borderline treasonous.

It used to be that every politician used to punctuate their sentences with thanking God. Now they punctuate their sentences with thanking God and the “troops” AFAICT it was a reaction to how shitty we treated our returning soldiers after the Vietnam war.

If anyone ever mentions that they are a veteran, there is an obligatory chorus of “thank you for your service” from anyone within earshot. Once again there is some collective guilt over how we treated the returning Vietnam veterans.

But now there seems to be an arms race of patriotism between various political factions. I can’t wait until we go back to the realization that just because we are the best country in the world blessed by God over all others, we don’t have to rub everyone else’s nose in it.

Probably also from many the recognition that this last pair of land wars in Asia were all volunteer and the smallest percentage of the US population to ever engage in war. Their is more real thankfulness that they fought these wars without having to resort to the draft.

We weren’t collectively asked to make any real sacrifices. But as you said most people realize that blaming the servicemen in Vietnam was a terrible and stupid thing.

[John_Mace]

@Damuri_Ajashi

We might have had a slightly higher level of background patriotism than other countries but not overly so… until 9/11. Then anything less than rah rah shish boom bah levels of patriotism was borderline treasonous.

It used to be that every politician used to punctuate their sentences with thanking God. Now they punctuate their sentences with thanking God and the “troops”

I’ve never heard even one politician use that phrasing unless he was specifically talking about the war or the military.

[Stoneburg]

@D_Anconia

Ugh. You may as well ask why Europeans and Australians are so much more enlightened than Americans.

Well I am not sure I agree with that. The US has produced a LOT of great thinkers and contributed a lot to the global community. It would seem like the US has both more geniuses and more idiots than most other nations. Just like you have both the fattest and the most beautiful people. It’s a nation of extremes, which comes with both benefits and drawbacks I guess.

@AHunter3

Disagree with most of the above, at least as far as it being The Explanation.

My take on it: in most countries, people’s patriotic allegiance is to the land. People may have a fair amount of pride about their particular form of government (or the people doing the governing) but, more often than not, I think, they consider the political landscape to just sort of “come with” the actual landscape which is what they think of when they think of “their country”.

We Americans are a peculiar batch of people in that respect. If you go to the science fiction section of the library and poke around you’ll find a double handful of stories in which some enclave of Americans has been isolated in some other-planetary or other-dimensional universe and they promptly set up a US Congress and start having elections and pick a President and as long as they have that, hey, it’s America all over again. What is distinctively American for many people in America is not the landscape, it’s our form of government. Or, more accurately, people’s often hazy and vague understanding thereof. But the patriotism is directly attached to our way of doing government, we’re extremely chauvinistic about it and often tend to speak as if we were the first (or only) democracy, the fairest, the system with the most freedom for individuals, the one and only system where people have rights, etc etc.

Even the more cosmopolitan and educated American, who may harbor a wry cynicism about American political realities, may still hold on to a strong sense that America should aspire to that kind of thing, that it’s how we’re supposed to be.

So a lot of American patriotism, to Americans themselves, isn’t about “our block is cooler than your block, our side of the street is better than yours”, it’s about ideals and principles of government that we were raised to be really really fervent about.

I hadn’t thought of that, but it seems true, thanks for the perspective. I can definitely recognize that I as a Swede associate Sweden very much with the land itself, the physical environment, rather than any specific sets of ideals. Americans also seem a lot more mobile than Europeans, at least from my impression, people seem to move between different states a lot more than happens here.

@Kobal2

I think the converse is as much of a factor as US dynamics, namely : nationalism/patriotism has garnered a lot of bad press in other Western countries over the past few decades. We French remember Vichy and French Algeria (or rather, we’d really rather not). The Brits also have some Imperial guilt to work through. Germany… yes. Same goes for Japan, Italy and Spain, all of whom had their brutal dictators putting a strong emphasis on nationalism.

So naturally, ardent patriotism is viewed with some measure of suspicion there ; not the least bit because that’s the far right’s hat still. Besides, it’s really tacky.

Not sure about the Scandiwegian countries, but then again they’re not really a huge international media presence. The only countries I can think of where die-hard nationalism is still very much a cultural thing are some of the countries of the old Eastern bloc (you do NOT want to diss Serbia, or should I say Glorious Eternal Srbja, in the presence of a Serb :)) and Russia. Maybe Israel too, but I’m not all too familiar with the culture there.

I agree that there is definitely an unhealthy connotation to patriotism here. If a swede tells me he/she is a patriot, what I hear is actually ”racist”. That’s because the connection patriotism - nationalism - nazism I guess. And the idea that your culture, or any culture, is superior to another is a meme that is suppressed here. Which leads to some problems itself, including a backlash of nationalism from people who get angry that ”It’s not OK to be proud of being Swedish” and similar sentiments.

@Martian Bigfoot

Scandiwegians, you say?

Well, for one thing, Norway is the bestest country in the world, Norwegians are the awesomest at absolutely everything, and if you come from anywhere else, starting with Sweden (in fact, *especially *Sweden) you are obviously some kind of moron or at best irrelevant. Oh, you didn’t know any of that? I guess that’s because you didn’t grow up in Norway in the eighties. I did, and that was the message I was getting from everywhere. (Oh, and yeah: It turned out to be wrong.)

I don’t think kids these days are getting that message as strongly, though. For one thing, we’re connected to the world now, by way of the interwebz and such, so there will be evidence to the contrary from an early age. Also, people travel more. But going by newspapers and people’s conversations, the idea certainly still seems to be around.

Also, we do this stupid shit once every year. If any other country did that, the neighbors would be worrying about impending invasion. (And, yeah, I know I just complained about the flags in the US. I’m sorry. We only do that one day each year, though. It’s not a year-round thing. And since it’s a public holiday, I can sleep through it.)

So, on the one hand, an inflated sense of self-importance. We’re totally schizophrenic about it, though, because on the other hand, we’re clearly also suffering from a massive inferiority complex. Any time anything Norwegian is noticed in the wider world (some pop star having fifteen minutes in the international limelight, some Norwegian scientist being mentioned in footnote in an international paper, fuck, anything will do) the Norwegian media is sooo happy. “They noticed us! The big, grown-up, proper countries noticed us! We love you, big, proper countries!” So, yeah, there’s that.

How can you have those two ideas - inflated sense of self, and a sense of inferiority - in your head at the same time? Well, Norwegians do. Some therapy is probably called for.

At least you Americans have reasons to be patriotic. For starters, you can actually invade places and get away with it. We Norwegians would obviously get our asses kicked if we tried invading a sandwich shop. We’re only a country because absolutely no one, starting with the Swedes (in fact. *especially *the Swedes) can be arsed to blow us off the map and get it over with.

Which, fellow Norwegians, is something worth remembering every now and then. And, while I’m on the subject, the other thing that needs remembering is that every aspect of our daily lives around here, culturally and materially (apart from the lutefisk, and if that actually is an aspect of your daily life - what’s wrong with you?) is imported. We don’t ever invent *anything *in this place, maybe apart from skiing and certain disgusting kinds of cheese.

Anyway, I’ll stop now, as I seem to be whipping myself up into an anti-Norwegian fervor. I didn’t mean for this to become an essay-length hijack. Apparently, I have some feelings on the subject. Maybe I should look into that.

As for the rest of the Scandiwegians, I think the Swedes and Danes have a more balanced and sensible view of their place in the world. They’re *on *the European continent, not basically falling off the edge of it like the drunk uncle leaning too far off the balcony railing at your Christmas party. So I guess it makes sense for them to be less messed up.

I’m not so sure that Swedes are more sensible in this respect, perhaps a little less patriotic, but the Swedish media still throws a hissy fit every time a Swede is mentioned internationally. Less now than what it used to be (mainly because we seem to have a few international celebrities now) but it still happens. I think the main delusion in Sweden is that all Swedes seem to think that Sweden is the epitome of ”normality”. That everything Swedish is normal, and that it’s the rest of the world that is strange. We make up approximately 0.1% of earths population but apparently that 0.1% thinks that ”Swedish” things like secular humanism and Social Democracy are the norm, and that anyone who doesn’t have those values are quite weird. Very successful social engineering, but also a bit deluded.

My own stance towards Norway is that we should (preferably immediately) declare war on you and demand that you be re-incorporated into the union of Greater Sweden. Then we should IMMEDIATLY surrender, declare that we lost, and claim to now be under occupation by Norway. As such we will demand human rights including full citizenship, and the next election we vote in a Swedish government, allowing us to use all that oil money you’ve been saving up. Now that would be a real ninja move.

[MrQwertyasd]

Well, for one thing, Norway is the bestest country in the world, Norwegians are the awesomest at absolutely everything

Absolutely all of my favourite church burning black metal bands have been Norwinndish.

[Jackmannii]

@Little_Nemo

I think a factor is that Americans are defined primarily by their nationality. We don’t have the same kind of cultural identity that somebody who’s English or Russian or Chinese or Egyptian has. We’re a mix of various cultures that’s united by our common nationality.

There’s a degree of truth to this.

Another factor is that ignorant, obsessive anti-American stereotyping is far more common than such behavior directed toward other nationalities, so that patriotic (or “patriotic”, if you prefer) backlash is more common among Americans.

I mean, when you come right down to it no one gives a rat’s ass about what happens in Austria, Denmark or Saskatchewan, so there’s not a lot of overt patriotism in such places.

[Don_t_Panic]

@Stoneburg

My own stance towards Norway is that we should (preferably immediately) declare war on you and demand that you be re-incorporated into the union of Greater Sweden. Then we should IMMEDIATLY surrender, declare that we lost, and claim to now be under occupation by Norway. As such we will demand human rights including full citizenship, and the next election we vote in a Swedish government, allowing us to use all that oil money you’ve been saving up. Now that would be a real ninja move.

Ah, playing the Italian opening (Stockholm variation). You clever bastards! shakes fist

But - aha! You’re not as smart as you think, because we have you outfoxed. We had planned this all along. We knew we couldn’t beat you in the field (FFS, you build your own fighter jets), which is why we set about finding all that oil in the first place. That oil money you mentioned? Well, why do you think we haven’t spent it? Heck, it doesn’t look like we ever will, so apparently we don’t really need it (and other countries get by just fine without). No, we’re obviously stockpiling it in order to trick you guys into pulling the plan you outlined.

What’s the end game? As soon as you’re all Norwegian citizens, that includes Zlatan Ibrahimovic. So now he’ll be playing in a Norway shirt. Which means that we’ll finally, *finally *have a shot in Hades at qualifying for a major championship.

Muahaha… twirls mustache

(Sure, our government will be run by Swedes now, which presumably means that surströmming will be compulsory for every lunch break, and all the æ-ø-å’s on our keyboards will be replaced by random noises with dots over them. But, heck, it’s probably worth it.)

[Fuzzy_wuzzy]

@Little_Nemo

I think a factor is that Americans are defined primarily by their nationality. We don’t have the same kind of cultural identity that somebody who’s English or Russian or Chinese or Egyptian has. We’re a mix of various cultures that’s united by our common nationality.

Im another poster who sees a lot of truth in this. Historically the US has required more patriotism. When you have a mongrel(no offence) nation of Italians, Russians, Welsh, Poles, Jews and Irish you need a glue to hold them all together. Things such as patriotism and a common language has been that glue.

[Stoneburg]

@Martian Bigfoot

Ah, playing the Italian opening (Stockholm variation). You clever bastards! shakes fist

But - aha! You’re not as smart as you think, because we have you outfoxed. We had planned this all along. We knew we couldn’t beat you in the field (FFS, you build your own fighter jets), which is why we set about finding all that oil in the first place. That oil money you mentioned? Well, why do you think we haven’t spent it? Heck, it doesn’t look like we ever will, so apparently we don’t really need it (and other countries get by just fine without). No, we’re obviously stockpiling it in order to trick you guys into pulling the plan you outlined.

What’s the end game? As soon as you’re all Norwegian citizens, that includes Zlatan Ibrahimovic. So now he’ll be playing in a Norway shirt. Which means that we’ll finally, *finally *have a shot in Hades at qualifying for a major championship.

Muahaha… twirls mustache

(Sure, our government will be run by Swedes now, which presumably means that surströmming will be compulsory for every lunch break, and all the æ-ø-å’s on our keyboards will be replaced by random noises with dots over them. But, heck, it’s probably worth it.)

Shit. That makes too much sense. I guess it’s back to the drawing board for me… Well played, Norway, well played…

Nice to know there is SOMEONE who thinks out jet fighters work though… we’ve been trying to sell them but basically end up having to give them away like a set of stake knives included in some other deal. I think our two main exports right now are beautiful women as wives to celebrities, and racist memes on internet sites. Hopefully mechanical switchboards for telephones will make a comeback soon.

[Don_t_Panic]

Wait. Your jet fighters don’t actually work? This changes the strategic picture slightly. OK, very slightly. But it’s something.

Semi-seriously, though, I’ve always sort of been in favor of a pan-Scandiwegian union. As it stands now, we’re just bickering amongst ourselves, punctuated only by not inconsiderable amounts of hot monkey sex. If we join forces, we can be a contender on the world scene. Think about it: Swedish jet fighters (well, if you can get the damned things working), Danish furniture design, and Norwegian… something. I dunno, I guess we can contribute some really steep cliffs to suicide ourselves off of, if the world-domination scheme fails.

[mbh]

@up_the_junction

My parallel is 19th century Britain,when Victorians walked the earth and nothing was impossible.

Britain ruled the seas, God was an Englishman and Rudyard Kipling knew it.

Not just Britain. France and Germany as well. And the European countries that didn’t control vast colonial empires, wanted to.

World War I bankrupted the imperial countries, and tore deep rifts in the empires. That soured the chattering classes on the notion of patriotism. World War II shattered the British and French empires, and convinced European leftists that nationalism = racism.

The USA, on the other hand, ended each war richer and stronger than it had been before each war. So Americans tended to view patriotism as constructive, not destructive. At the end of WWII, you had two consecutive generations of Americans who had spent the glory days of their youth in uniform, saluting the flag, and singing the national anthem.

Vietnam may have turned American leftists against nationalism, but a lot of people still view Churchill as a better role model than Chamberlain.

[Kobal2]

@mbh

Not just Britain. France and Germany as well. And the European countries that didn’t control vast colonial empires, wanted to.

Yes and no. In fact, looking back on historical documents it appears the majority of the English weren’t all that keen on an empire either - only the handful of private companies & lobbies that were poised to make a killing there were interested.

But for the general public empires consistently cost more money that they brought home (even with the invasions done on a shoestring budget, which was the norm) ; nobody liked being conscripted to go and fight Johnny Zulu in the ass end of nowhere ; and most ordinary people didn’t really see the point outside of a handful of key strategic locations like Suez, Panama and the like.
On the *other *hand, they absolutely saw the point of not letting Jimmy Froggie or Jerry Kraut put their greedy fucking foreign hands on Tanganyika.

And so, that worked to sell empires.

The USA, on the other hand, ended each war richer and stronger than it had been before each war. So Americans tended to view patriotism as constructive, not destructive. At the end of WWII, you had two consecutive generations of Americans who had spent the glory days of their youth in uniform, saluting the flag, and singing the national anthem.

That, on the other hand, is closer to the mark IMO. Jingoistic bullshit was rather the norm in 1901 - this because various factors caused nation-states to become interested in, well, people grokking they were living in nation-states. Then we kinda blew ourselves up out of that mindset. Twice.
But the US still hasn’t, although maybe Viet-Nam (and who know, Iraq 2 ?) might have had *some *dampening effect. 1920s style nationalism was something else, I’ll tell you that for a dollar.

[Kropotkin]

@Jackmannii

I mean, when you come right down to it no one gives a rat’s ass about what happens in Austria, Denmark or Saskatchewan, so there’s not a lot of overt patriotism in such places.

Saskatchewan seceded?! I gotta get a radio. And form up a volunteer Venceremos brigade to help those prairie populists with the wheat harvest.

[MrQwertyasd]

I think basically, the simple answer to all this is to give anyone who has an American base in their country a vote in American elections. Or at least on US policy in that country. Let’s formalise what we all really know, and emancipate the dominions. Then we all have a stake, and can’t blame them if it all goes tits up. I’d go for a bit of that.

[Stoneburg]

@Martian Bigfoot

Wait. Your jet fighters don’t actually work? This changes the strategic picture slightly. OK, very slightly. But it’s something.

Semi-seriously, though, I’ve always sort of been in favor of a pan-Scandiwegian union. As it stands now, we’re just bickering amongst ourselves, punctuated only by not inconsiderable amounts of hot monkey sex. If we join forces, we can be a contender on the world scene. Think about it: Swedish jet fighters (well, if you can get the damned things working), Danish furniture design, and Norwegian… something. I dunno, I guess we can contribute some really steep cliffs to suicide ourselves off of, if the world-domination scheme fails.

I’ve had the same idea for years. It seems silly to have separate nations in Scandinavia and I’d much rather see the whole of Scandinavia united as one nation. I guess the Finns might be a bit hard to convince though… they REALLY like their independence and they pretty much think that the rest of us are gay losers. Which… you know… compared to them we kind of are.

Swedens main contribution besides lots of people (compared to the rest of you) would probably be music and video games. Finns will definitely be in charge of the military side because as we can all agree on, they are the only Scandinavians who know how to fight. Danish people are the only ones that aren’t suicidally depressed, which would be nice, and obviously Norway will be bankrolling the whole operation. It’s a dream team of nations!

You think we should let Iceland join as well? They’ve got Björk and those cool geysers…

[MrQwertyasd]

Can Northern England rejoin Scandi please ?

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Kropotkin

Saskatchewan seceded?!

They’re separating the wheat… from the riffraff!

[octopus]

@Uniqueorn

Cite?

It’s axiomatic.

[Stoneburg]

@MrQwertyasd

Can Northern England rejoin Scandi please ?

I dunno… are you over the whole “Vikings coming to rape you”-thing…? Bygones? In that case I’d be OK with it. You have to wear a horned helmet and learn how to quaff though. Standard initiation stuff.