Holland / Netherlands from what I remember became a well to do country with the same protestant ethics that the US for example had. Even if they aren’t majority protestant now… they are so tolerant and liberal. I think its easy to say they are in any top 3 list of liberal countries as regards customs if not first.
From the legalized prostitution and red light district... to tolerance for drug users... Why are the Dutch so tolerant and liberal ?Maybe we should be asking why other countries **aren’t **so tolerant and liberal.
We must of course beware of sweeping generalisations here, but my own guess would be something to do wih the sheer multiculturaism of the Dutch ports for the last, well, millennium or so. Antwerp and Amsterdam were vastly important hubs for trade between Britain & the Nordic States, the Holy Roman Empire and the Mediterranean, and later the New World, Africa and the Indies.
And those protestant ethics weren’t quite the same as the US: Holland was for decades a centre for the almost anarchic Anabaptists, which don’t compare very closely to the more puritan, Luddite version of Lutheranism of the pilgrim fathers.
Well, the attitude of the Dutch on drugs only extends to pot and hash, if I recall correctly. “Hard” drugs are banned, and this law seems to be enforced strictly.
The Dutch have cracked down pretty hard on Ecstasy, last I checked.
As for prostitution, it is de facto legal in quite many places. The Dutch have prettied up the system to a degree, but most European cities have their “gut”, as we used to call it in the Navy, where practicing it or patronizing the prostitutes is tolerated to a degree.
My experiences with the Dutch have been primarily with their military personnel, with whom I used to work quite closely. Now, military members might skew this perception to a degree, but I always found the Dutch air crews I worked with to be quite fine people, hardworking and disciplined to a considerable degree.
From other things I’ve read, this too is a hallmark of their society. And personal self-discipline beats legal sanctions every time.
Now, there are aspects of society in the Netherlands I don’t favor (euthanasia for one). But I admire the Dutch for being able to maintain a society where social problems are met with societal sanction independent from law. We used to have such a society here in America, until we lost a considerable degree of our self-control.
Naturally I didn’t expect them to tolerate all drugs… but still even generalizing they are by far the most tolerant and open minded people I know.
Any Dutch members of SMDB ?
IIRC gum and Maastricht are Netherlanders, and probably so are a few other Dopers. I’m an American who’s lived in the Netherlands for about two months so far, so I can give some impressions if desired, but I’ll wait to see what the real experts have to say first.
My one initial caveat: There are a lot of Dutch people who are a lot less liberal and tolerant than you might imagine just from the decriminalization of light drugs and prostitution. In the same way that American free-speech laws and hardcore porn sold in drugstores might not prepare you for the more sexually conservative views of many American fundamentalist Christians.
Coldfire is Dutch - would be interesting to hear his take on the matter.
My take - the Netherlands has been a hub of merchant activity for hundreds of years. Being smaller in size (in terms of population and land area) relative to other major European powers (UK, France, Germany, Russia), the Dutch opted for emphizing merchant activity via the sea to gain an advantage over rival European powers. Check out any economic history book regarding Europe, and you’ll discover that the Dutch held (for a brief period) considerable economic influence throughout Euope (they were later eclipsed by the British who also favored merchant activity via the sea).
Opting for this strategy forced the Dutch to be quite pragmatic in dealing with other nations with respect to merchant activity. So I would venture a guess that much of the Dutch’s liberal attitudes stems from a history of pragmatic dealings with other nations (within Europe as well as those outside Europe). They weren’t large enough to throw their weight around militarily (at least in Euope; let’s ignore aspects of their colonial period for the time being). Having a liberal approach towards business probably helped them remain competitive among European powers. Which was helped in that it was reinforced by the Calvinist form of Christianity present (or vice-versa - the Calvinist doctrines do tend to reinforce business/commerce activity as a virtue; would be interested to read arguments as to which took hold first - Calvinist religious influence or liberal business/merchant climate; Max Weber argued for the former in his larger thesis for why capitalism first took hold in Europe).
In short, the liberal attitude of the Dutch today is a continuation of it’s liberal heritage.
I agree that the Netherlands became tolerant because INTOLERANCE is bad for business! The Dutch learned (ages ago) that most people will leave you alone, as long as they have a decent standared of living. So Holland (small and poor in resources) became a wealthy, powerful nation by trading.
Being tolerant of other faiths, Holland atracted a large jewish population, whose acumen and brain power helped the country advance and thrive. The Dutch thereby avoided the horrible wars of religion that divided France, Germany, Austrai, and many other european nations. Think what France might have become, if they didn’t expell their protestants (Hugenots)!
Basically, the Dutch learned to mid their own business, and work hard.
It’s with no small amount of sadness that I wonder if you might be the very last person ever to ask that question.
Quick, turn on the ClogSignal!
Manhattan I was think some what the same thing when I read this one.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/12/netherlands.raid.ap/index.html
Is this law just saber rattling from the right or is there a real chance that the Dutch will regulate who can preach at mosques?
I have heard a couple of Netherlanders say that the reason the Netherlands Dutch are so liberal and tolerant is because they sent all their repressive racist assholes to Indonesia and South Africa. There may be something in that, although like all societies everywhere, they doubtless kept a few repressive racist assholes around for seed.
There has been extensive discussion about this in The Netherlands, which unfortunately I’m not all familiar about. I doubt whether there is a definitive answer. There are however a few guesses possible, from an insider’s perspective.
One thing is a strong merchant perspective, which means business pragmatics takes preference over principles. I’ve read that at around 1900 the city of Harderwijk was a busy port and had as a consqeuence a lot of prostitution. The city is also rather christian. So a motion was proposed to prohibit prostitution (or to actually effect the prohibition, dunno which). However, the motion was defeated as this was supposed to be bad for business (or taxes).
Dutch politics has been coalition politics since at least a century. There is no single majority party. Hence all parties have to be able to compromise to get anything done. Compromise doesn’t have the bad name that it seems to have in (some?) other countries.
Dutch public policy during the twentieth century has been very much influenced by pragmatism. The policy with respect to prostitution and drugs has been driven by a desire to get the best result for society and to diminish suffering of the people influenced, not to strictly enforce a ban. This may have to do with certain influences of social science on policy, I’m not sure about that. Dutch policy tends to stress leniency for those suffering, not for trying to attach blame or mete out punishment. I should note that a lot of Dutch feel that this is the wrong approach, and think for example that there should be harsher punishments.
The Netherlands has for a long time not been a strong player in European politics. Hence we’re used to have to negotiate to get what we want.
All in all I would say the Dutch are not a very principled country, in the good and the bad senses of the word.
Which however is not to say that Dutch society is perfect; there is of course sufficient diversity in opinions, again in good and bad directions. Furthermore there is a tendency to conformity and to preaching to others who we consider less enlightened. Also, there appears to be a change going on at present, and it is difficult to predict which turn it will take.
I should add, in reply to those people refering to recent incidents, that like any country we have our share of criminals, radicals and terrorists. 
I won’t go in that, as I don’t see the point in discussing such incidents if the OP wanted an answer about a general tendency in society, not about those members of society who are generally reviled. Those who want to discuss current news, should seek their own thread (or visit those in the Pit).
Only partially true. The Netherlands definitely does ban “hard” drugs, and Ecstasy is considered a hard drug. However, the focus of Dutch police is to go after the traffickers, and not the street user. Thus if the Dutch police stop a heroin addict with a personal supply of the drug, they won’t arrest them. Unlike in say the US.
The Dutch attitude is basically drug users are victims of the traffickers. While in the US street users have even been characterized as supporting terrorism, as the money they pay for drugs finances terrorists.
I emigrated from the Netherlands to Canada when I was 6 weeks old in 1950. During my formative years I was heavily exposed to a fanatical Dutch Calvinist church. No dancing, no going to movies no working on Sundays or joining unions. Every social occasion turned into hours of discussion on social matters. These people made the Southern Baptists look like UU members. Yet, there was no attempt to proselytize. Ever. Only when a serious conflict arose for would an outsider ever reveal his deeply religious convictions.
You can imagine my surprise on hearing how liberal and tolerant the Dutch were back in Holland.
That’s a side of The Netherlands that foreigners aren’t usually aware of. In the 1950’s the Dutch were very religious, which changed rather radically in the 1960s-1970s. A number of authors have written extensively about their experiences in shaking of the bonds of religion (Maarten 't Hart, Jan Wolkers among others).
As the radical christian churches have almost no political influence, they are not generally heard of abroad. The major christian party, the CDA, is not at all like those.
My previous post should read “Every social occasion turned into hours of discussion on religious matters”
I could write a book too !
And the reason that Great Britain is so reserved and dignified is that they sent their…
:rolleyes: [sup]nevermind[/sup]
People, you’re making us Cloggies blush ! 
IMHO Tusculan (a fellow Cloggie, now living abroad, right? ) gave an excellent summary of the reasons the Dutch usually give to explain their culture to strangers.
One caveat though. It is tempting to take a country or culture, and project qualities or vices upon it. It’s quite possible Canada (or any Buddhist culture), or even some parts of San Francisco, are far more tolerant then the Dutch will ever be. But for some reason, we got the reputation. I guess we just have really good PR.
Oh Kimstu, your post about my “Quiet Guy theory” in my Theo van Gogh -thread made my day. Thanks.